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Post by slinger on Jan 4, 2006 19:29:58 GMT 1
on the contrary to mack, my feelings on seeing this is that the upper body position and alignment is very good - as long as you have ran in a a straightish run up i really like the first two frames.....excellent run off and extension off the left and nicely 'shut off' in frame 3 however i must say that at final right foot contact body sinks and 'sits' this is very UNdesirable for a number of reasons, 1. time is lost and the right hip strike is delayed 2. as a result you just put the left in and fall onto it and it actually looks like it's toe first, this is why you collapse, suggesting if anything base width is very short. To aid your block try following over the left leg more, keeping momentum going over the top of it, if you can get the right to work sooner this will also have positive effects as it will drive you on to the left, then think about "driving over it" standing throws and very short approaches thinking of a braced left leg will also help but off the run up base width and getting your right to work sooner is the key......to get your right to work quicker the right leg must land flexed and toe orientated this then should work as close to immediately as poss. with NO collapsing - if your RIGHT leg lands straight it will sink, keep the weight transfer going forward.
upper body wise i love the left arm at run off - it shuts you off nicely and i really like the fact the javelin doesn't move the tail is really high - this great as it allows you to use your chest and shoulder in the throw and will make it easier for you to work your legs as it creates room - if your arm was low this causes lots of problems as you can't use your chest/shoulder effectively.
lastly a word on the 3 stride approach, yes you are tall in this BUT this isn't a good thing as if you look you are too far forward, on 3 stride approach throws it is hugely essential you use your legs to get into the throw, the stride prior to impulse is really short and your body catches your legs up, you must stay behind as you'll end up on top of the throw, giving no time for legs to work, no range and a topped throw. On any slow short approaches emphasis should be on range particularly the legs.
as a whole james i like it, just one or two things to work on, but remember that at this time of year when we aren't at our sharpest makes technical skills and 'timing' difficult, but i like your ideas james on doing more athletic based training this will really help you in what you need to improve on.
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Post by Administrator on Jan 4, 2006 23:18:17 GMT 1
Blimey slinger! That's quite some analysis!
One thing I'm interested in is what I can do or think about to make my right leg work quicker? What do people focus on as the right touches down? Do you think about driving the knee to the floor or forwards or rotating the heel outwards?
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Post by slinger on Jan 5, 2006 15:38:50 GMT 1
this is the million dollar Q!!! and too be honest different things work for different people.......but there are some things you must do and some things you must be able to do,
one of the key elements to the final foot contact is much earlier than most think, equal rangey X overs must be performed accompaning a well, extended run off, the right foot must land on the ball of the foot, pointing at 2 o clockish and with a flexed right leg, both sam and james foot lands nearly sideways to the direction of the throw and in sam's case it does - this makes it incredibly difficult to work it and transfer the weight from right to left, as it's on the right far too much and too long [hence the sitting and sinking of the right]
now to get the lower right side to work - i say lower side because different athletes think hip or knee or foot. Personally however i think to an extent it happens naturally, BUT only if you've done all the things right mentioned earlier, but because sam and james have been doing this for so long they will probably be ingrained, so they will have to no doubt conciously think of working it....you can try a number of the following - dropping the right leg so when you land you think of it being extremely soft aka Zelezny, or you can think of driving the hip forwards aka Backley - it doesn't matter they are both just a means to an end and they essentially do exactly the same thing, they are just two differing styles that's all.
The key importance is setting yourself up and getting into the correct positions to perform the skill.....all the will and practice in the world will not help if you don't get in to the right positions.
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Post by Mack on Jan 5, 2006 16:06:26 GMT 1
I'm there with Phil but don't think how your foot lands is that important. If you can get your knee and hip driving forward before the weight moves over the centre point of the base your should be ok.
I used two main ideas with a combination of the two and lots of practice.
I tried to land on the ball of my foot and turn without the heel touching.
I tried to do do all my cross overs with the left hip closed but the right foot pointing towards the throw line. (You will see both Sam and James have cross overs with the inside of the foot facing the throw line)
I still land on the ball of the foot and still kick my foot sideways, but I (still need practice) hit the knee and hip before my weight moves forward and left foot plants.
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Post by slinger on Jan 5, 2006 21:43:26 GMT 1
how the right foot lands in relation to which way it's pointing is crucial in to determine whether you are giving yourself the chance to work the lower right side a.s.a.p and prior to final left foot contact, and the end of the day it's the only contact you have with the ground and will therefore determine the position of the rest of the body, as mack says he likes to have his toes of his right foot pointing semi forward as this is keeping it really simple and allows good foot placement, but it's fine for those who do at run off have their right foot square, for as long as it turns in mid air towards the throw......watch jan zelezny for possibly the best example in the world for this, james to an extent does this but perhaps not quite enough.....the reason why james's right [and sam] takes ages to 'go' is because of the 'sitting' and 'sinking' the reason why i like this "right foot being square" at run off is it closes the left side off and delays any premature opening up of the top half - very important if you are 5'10'' with short levers compared to mack who is 6'4'' and with long levers!!!! But being 'shut off' doesn't mean you have to be rotational [like sam] and have the javelin pointing into the right hand stand [ ;D] it takes an exceptional athlete to be able to get good right foot placement with that kind of stretch through the body and as said earlier it can tie you in knots and will also affect run up speed - as i've said in a few posts before hips are designed to run forwards and in this way they are at their most efficient, now by running side ways and in some instances more than side on YOU WILL SLOW DOWN, when ideally you want to accelerate.
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Post by slinger on Jan 6, 2006 9:39:14 GMT 1
sorry!!! made a school boy error in my first reply to james post....i put something like "if the left lag lands straight you will collapse" i meant to say RIGHT leg - we want the left straight!!!! glad i re-read it, don't want anyone thinking slinger's a numpty!!!!! also it would be good to hear one or two others ideas on this....brian, dave, rob, jim, jeremy, jb, motherhen, patience etc and all you young 'uns!!!
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Post by beepee on Jan 6, 2006 12:15:08 GMT 1
Blimey!!! its taken me two days to read through the previous posts ;D Not the best of angle for the vid shots but from what I can see it looks like Jim is just a bit "idle" with the old/young legs. I agree with all of the other points put forwards and I reckon that the "run off" needs to be a bit more aggressive and then get the right foot/knee/hip working before the plant foot hits. From the shots it seems as though the right foot is being dragged along on the instep of the foot, a sure sign that it is not being used correctly. Easy to say but not easy to do? This will make a significant improvement to the distance, ask Lasher ;D
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Post by motherhen on Jan 6, 2006 12:52:58 GMT 1
Hey why me in lol! The main thing I always look for in athletes is the right foot. I had a bad habit of locking mine off (90 degree angle type thing) which meant I couldnt use my body properly and I didnt help my knees. It also really hampers the distance but is never the first thing and athlete thinks of. Slinger and BP are both saying good stuff as usual and trying some of the stuff suggested will help. Regarding not locking the foot off turning it in slightly before starting does help but it has to be drilled as often the minute you start the run-up it will magicly move back tot your old position. The same is true for turn it in the air. A lot of footwork practise indoors happend before i could remember to turn it in before landing (at least most of the time). I get a feeling that your the kind of athlete the can have a lovely throwing action in your upper body and can have reasonably good footwork / lower body. The problem is putting them together. I found when i got in a similar situation that going back to basics can help. its really frustrating but focusing on 3,5,7,9 strides makes you think about everything again. But you do you need to have a pair of eyes watching you or youll just slip back into bad habits. I can remember if you have a regular coach up at your end to watch but I remember BP having something (among his many find handouts etc) that may help if you have some other throwers or a coach from another event (they may not know the javelin but they should know how to observe just as well). I remember using it a long long time ago and it was a check sheet that showed / listed what you should do and a way of scoring out of 5 for someone to observe how near you got to. I may just be my imagination about how good it was but it may help even when your just viewing your own videos. Can you remeber it BP? or has anyone else used similar things?
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Post by slinger on Jan 6, 2006 13:21:47 GMT 1
i don't mean to offend either parties involved with my next comment and i've been thinking of it for the last few days - since james posted his pic's, but james you get into really similar positions as parker from right foot contact to the left being toe oriented!!!!!!!! it's actually quite funny to see, well for me anyway! by the way this isn't a compliment! dave has thrown 78m not by being technically excellent but because he's a naturally gifted javelin thrower and has an ability to "lash" it, hence the name...however he's really making great improvemnets this winter and is now working the right much, much sooner and is blocking more effectivly, you must remember dave has had 2 operations on his knees as a result of this, so bear this in mind when concerning your throwing and health.................how is/has he made improvements? well he's found that an aggresive run off with rangey X overs prior to this WITH better right foot placement has given him the chance to do the skill.
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Post by beepee on Jan 6, 2006 15:03:17 GMT 1
I do remember it Marie and I still have them kicking about in my mountain of paper work somewhere. The check sheet did help focus on particular points and it was then easy to review which of these needed to be worked on. Haa happy days eh? Hull on a drizzly day? lol. Have been watching Lasher working over the hols at the EIS in Sheffield and Mick is slowly licking him into shape. I think Mick said something about Lasher being the first athlete to miss out the eighties and go from 70m to 90mtrs in one jump, we shall have to wait and see but he does look good and rangey and the jammy bugger is off to S. Africa at the end of the month, is that near Skeggy?
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Post by slinger on Jan 6, 2006 15:31:10 GMT 1
....nah, it's near whitby! ;D
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Post by Administrator on Jan 6, 2006 15:53:02 GMT 1
you must remember dave has had 2 operations on his knees as a result of this, so bear this in mind when concerning your throwing and health.................how is/has he made improvements? My health is the biggest consideration regardng my left leg since I've had 5 knee ops on my blocking leg since I took javelin up, the last one was caused by a "plant and twist! on my toes in the south of england champs last year chipping bone from the end of my thigh!
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Post by slinger on Jan 6, 2006 15:59:50 GMT 1
people say take up sport to be healthy, i say only take up javelin if you want to end up being a cripple.........unfortunately throwing the javelin is extremely punishing on the body... who cares!!!!!!!! give it some welly lad! ;D
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Post by beepee on Jan 6, 2006 16:15:29 GMT 1
Jim getting off the right quicker will not overload the plant knee any more than it already is, in fact keeping it straight will lessen the pressure on it as force (like electricity) will try to get to ground as quickly as possible, so if the knee is bent this disrupts the flow and takes the extra pressure that is built up? well at least I know what I mean. This worrying about the knee/leg is probably why you collapse off a longer run up anyhow which is understandable given the previous injuries. I have an athlete coming back from a serious knee injury too so I do understand but trying to guard against further injury just makes it worse and in the long run (forgive the pun) will actually cause further injury due to bad positioning.
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Post by beepee on Jan 6, 2006 17:04:08 GMT 1
Whilst on the subject of training my lot are in for a short sharp shock tonight as we move in to another phase of training and start to get some speed into the proceedings. Up until now the emphasis has been on strength and getting some sort of semblance of fitness. We have been doing loads of medi ball excercises concentrating on strength/fitness and not on the actual specific throwing aspects of them but from hence forth (biblical bit) each exercise will involve two mediballs for one athlete. As an example the sit up and throw exercise will involve throwing the ball overhead from the front which then the athlete lays back and then sits up and throws forwards to the thrower in front of them but the next ball thrown will come from the side which is returned to the thrower standing at the side, then from the front again etc etc, at a rate of knots. Soooo, the ball gets thrown a number of reps from the front (say 20) and 20 from the left side, then repeated with 20 from the front and 20 from the right side. This will be repeated for two sets. This two-ball throwing will cover about 12 different exercises for 2 sets We will now also introduce some sprint reps into the session say 60mtrs lengths to start with and most of the upper body excercises will be set to a time and not numbers, ie, as many press ups as poss in (x)minutes instead of say (x) number of press ups per exercise. In other words speed will now be added to strength and hopefully the key is that power will be the outcome ;D We will start upping the specific med ball throws too to compliment javelin throwing and during the next couple of months we will move over to more specific work with weights, plyos (sand pit bunny jumping) etc. Heres an old schedule that I have dug out to show what I mean. Its old and boring stuff but it works so why change a good formula? Each to their own this is just my way, as they say" all roads lead to Rome" members.lycos.co.uk/Rotherham_Harriers/javpicts.html
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