mike
Pitkamaki
Posts: 119
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Post by mike on May 29, 2007 8:52:51 GMT 1
Ok, yes I do have an injury, but it is due to overuse as opposed to a technical problem. As for me needing a coach, you are right. However, it proves very difficult to find some on who is going to give me the specific details required. As I have said before, input like strike your hip, keep your arm straight and throw over the top of your head, and worst of all run at it and RUN OFF more, are poor phrases adopted by those who want to make it sound as if they know what they are talking about, and as for the better coaches and throwers who say things like these and understand why it needs to happen that way, the details are not specific enough. Eg. How do you strike your hip? Never been told Keep your arm straight? Until when and no you don't Throw over the top of your head? Virtually impossible, and doesn't work Run at it? What needs to be in place for you to be able to run at it, how do you run, where should all your torso be and what EXACTLY are you doing with legs and arms. Runoff? How, what needs to be in place for it to be effective, how do you get in and out of those positions, can you runoff too much, if you're not where you should be before that stage, will being told to F***ING RUNOFF MORE be of any use. I don't bloody think so!!
This ramble is my way of saying, how can all the coaches I've ever meet in regard to javelin, not pick out the huge amount of things I was doing wrong and others are doing wrong, or worst of all sum it up by saying that it looked fine and you just need to run at it more and wait at the end a little longer. Well, thats useful information, thanks, sorted me right out there, pal!!?? These bad things are now blindingly obvious to me now, as are the methods of fixing them. All bad things come from one persons interpretation of what is said, so if hip strike comprises off 20 pieces of essential information, why not break it down to those pieces, explain each one. At least, some of these little pieces of information may lead to HIP STRIKE, rather than saying to the athletes the end piece of the big puzzle, strike your hip. Not good enough, and in fact somewhat destructive to javelin throwing, so better not having anyone there to confuse the situation. As I'm sure you are all aware a runup and hip strike into the throw relies on a huge amount of things to be in exactly the right place at all times to work effectively. Sorry, but run harder is not possible if your not in the right place, as is runoff, as is hip strike, as is the pull high and down the middle, as is left arm, so therefore that deems these statements useless and unhelpful, and some what frustrating and a short cut to coaching. NOT F***ING GOOD ENOUGH. As for those who just say things like you didn't strike you hip, lost left side, etc and never tell you a way of making sure these things don't happen should not be coaching. If I had a coach who could coach me without any of these phases and spot the three main things (in my opinion) which allow all this to happen, the ways of making sure these things are in place, and pick them out instantly, then I would gladly appreciate the help. Oh, I'm sure you have gathered that my three things are not quite the same as Jeremys. Anyone out there who thinks they could help me? Please don't be shy!
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Post by Caroline on May 29, 2007 9:11:10 GMT 1
If javelin were as simple as 3 things we would all be coaching 90m throwers. As Mike has rightly pointed out, it's the correction of things that is important, as is the explanation of what we mean. 'Open' and 'closed' is a case in point with young athletes. Unless you explain what you mean how on earth will they know?
Coaching javelin (certainly to youngsters) should be about instilling a love of the event that will last forever, good injury prevention and assisting natural talent to improve in a way that suits their style and abilities. If we set good foundations then hopefully they will grow into strong and talented seniors.
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Post by wez on May 29, 2007 9:34:07 GMT 1
Jeremy, I do not agree that we should criticise athletes and coaches on here. I even have reservations about Officials because they give of their time freely for no reward. We are all human and thus prone to mistakes although some of us would dispute this. I would love to get back to the common purpose of improving British javelin throwing by being positive, positive, positive!!! The great atmosphere that is prevalent amongst our best throwers in competition is often lost on here. Phil I really agree with PJ on this, it feels like recently we as a Forum have been overly critical and even condeming of coaches and athletes alike and its just not good for a constructive atmousphere. Its simply not fair to say that some people are useless as coaches and in my mind Mike's last post really underlines part of the reason why. There needs to be an clear understanding between coach and athlete at all times in order for progression to occur. eg use of terminology that you both understand, both of you agreeing about what needs work and what can be ignored. Above all there must be a level of mutual respect between the athlete and the coach. The athlete must respect the coach or they will not listen fully and certainly not trust the coaches methods or knowledge. The coach must respect the athlete in order to get useful feedback from the athlete so the coaching methods etc can be adapted to suit. Having said that there are of course different ability levels amongst coaches as there are with athletes and some coaches-athletes partnerships will just not work if they are unwilling/unable to adapt or accept eachothers differences. I also can help but think that some athletes probably Mike included who have come a very long way on their own will after a point find it very difficult to accept external ideas or coaching and it would take a real special match of personalities to actual find a suitable coach. Thats not to say that its the athletes fault as they have either lost faith due to unsuccesful coaching attempts in the past or are just so used to self learning and analysis that they find it very difficult to trust external input.
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on May 29, 2007 10:12:55 GMT 1
You know. what Mike says there has so much relevence to Sadie & Me and what I say to her, and indeed some of the reason behind her doing well.
You see, as most of you lot know, I have not been in this game long, and the terminolgy is mostly martian speak at the moment to me. But I CAN see a better way of perhaps implementing something to make her throw better, and it is ONLY technique we work on, and normally it is in the car on the way to the comp! She throws off 5 cross overs, never trains in the Jav, never does weights, but simple subtle things do it for her. Sometimes I will try to tell her something to change but I dont know what its called.....so I show her, and in doing so it has been broken down.....of course she will take the piss and say oh! you mean just before the plant....and I say yeah if thats what its called!
Anyway, thats my tuppence worth, perhaps I can see things from a different perspective not knowing other things!
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Post by wez on May 29, 2007 10:26:46 GMT 1
tbh some of the terminology can be confusing and i can admit that when i first came onto the site i wasn't sure what some of the terms meant or then i had my own names for things and there were some things that i had very poor knowledge of.
The point is that you understand the bigger picture and can get that accross to the athlete in a way they will understand, and with you and Sadie it is clearly working so my hats off to you both. Perhaps the biggest feather in your cap has been your open mindedness and enthusiasm to listen to other peoples ideas, i bet you know more than you are given credit for! that is quite clear by the pics you choose to post up from recent comps as you are capturing critical points for different throwers.
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Post by pj on May 29, 2007 10:40:57 GMT 1
Perhaps it's time to ask Slinger to start a Glossary of Terms and then we can all have our input. It should improve people's understanding and we can add different words and their explanations rather than dictionary definitions as and when we remember them!
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on May 29, 2007 10:48:59 GMT 1
tbh some of the terminology can be confusing and i can admit that when i first came onto the site i wasn't sure what some of the terms meant or then i had my own names for things and there were some things that i had very poor knowledge of. The point is that you understand the bigger picture and can get that accross to the athlete in a way they will understand, and with you and Sadie it is clearly working so my hats off to you both. Perhaps the biggest feather in your cap has been your open mindedness and enthusiasm to listen to other peoples ideas, i bet you know more than you are given credit for! that is quite clear by the pics you choose to post up from recent comps as you are capturing critical points for different throwers. Wez, you see I have a plan (oh here he goes! )! Sadie got me into this, and there is only so much coffee drinking you can do in the sidelines and talk about rubbish with other parents. Along the way I have become an official as it gets me closer to the action (to learn). I compete, and do not care who with , even if I am rubbish, (to learn). I Coach youngsters, because they will always ask, how do I throw things, I do a bit of show and tell, they get better, which means....I learn! Hey, why not even take a bit of video and a few pics, see what I can LEARN from that......even better, have the balls to become an "official" photographer, as I am bound to be able to LEARN more if I am in the middle of the stadium. I get home, and look at the pics, and things become so obvious to me, not all the time I grant you, but there you go. So maybe your right Wez, I may know more and probably do, but would "one" have to learn the terminolgy and be "around a bit" for some athletes to take note.....more than likely! Anyway, I had to laugh....I was just off the front of the runway waiting for Smiler to take his throw and I shouted "come on Chris"! The other Photographer said, you cant do that on the infield ( I do know that, but was caught up in the moment!) but as I explained to him about my new found official Photgrapher status.......you know whats coming... I said sorry Mate, I am only LEARNING! ;D
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Post by wez on May 29, 2007 11:10:28 GMT 1
Heres a shocker for you then, the main reason why i discuss javelin and hand out the occasional coaching comment to people is to...LEARN and sadly not so much to help other as to help my own throwing....SORRY but i think i do occasionally contribute something useful by accident
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on May 29, 2007 11:14:43 GMT 1
Heres a shocker for you then, the main reason why i discuss javelin and hand out the occasional coaching comment to people is to...LEARN and sadly not so much to help other as to help my own throwing....SORRY but i think i do occasionally contribute something useful by accident That you do Wez! In fact there is a poster on my wall, along the lines of I love Wez ;D
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Post by wez on May 29, 2007 11:19:15 GMT 1
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Post by sadiemk on May 29, 2007 12:26:48 GMT 1
tbh some of the terminology can be confusing and i can admit that when i first came onto the site i wasn't sure what some of the terms meant or then i had my own names for things and there were some things that i had very poor knowledge of. The point is that you understand the bigger picture and can get that accross to the athlete in a way they will understand, and with you and Sadie it is clearly working so my hats off to you both. Perhaps the biggest feather in your cap has been your open mindedness and enthusiasm to listen to other peoples ideas, i bet you know more than you are given credit for! that is quite clear by the pics you choose to post up from recent comps as you are capturing critical points for different throwers. Wez, you see I have a plan (oh here he goes! )! Sadie got me into this, and there is only so much coffee drinking you can do in the sidelines and talk about rubbish with other parents. Along the way I have become an official as it gets me closer to the action (to learn). I compete, and do not care who with , even if I am rubbish, (to learn). I Coach youngsters, because they will always ask, how do I throw things, I do a bit of show and tell, they get better, which means....I learn! Hey, why not even take a bit of video and a few pics, see what I can LEARN from that......even better, have the balls to become an "official" photographer, as I am bound to be able to LEARN more if I am in the middle of the stadium. I get home, and look at the pics, and things become so obvious to me, not all the time I grant you, but there you go. So maybe your right Wez, I may know more and probably do, but would "one" have to learn the terminolgy and be "around a bit" for some athletes to take note.....more than likely! Anyway, I had to laugh....I was just off the front of the runway waiting for Smiler to take his throw and I shouted "come on Chris"! The other Photographer said, you cant do that on the infield ( I do know that, but was caught up in the moment!) but as I explained to him about my new found official Photgrapher status.......you know whats coming... I said sorry Mate, I am only LEARNING! ;D and when he learns i learn! and its woorking
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Post by nije on Jun 3, 2007 13:43:31 GMT 1
If you don't understand something or a phrase - you ask don't you?
I don't know who has coached you Mike but who ever they have been - you seem to have had a bad experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sure not all coaches are like that!
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