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Post by lifebeginsat40 on May 23, 2007 22:21:45 GMT 1
I'm pretty sure Merv's coach looks on the site - not sure about Merv himself. I think we need to remember about Merv that he was only throwing 58m a couple of seasons ago and he really has come a long way since then (almost 15 metres!). I hope (as I am sure we all do) he continues to move closer to his potential and I think its because people realise how much potential he has that he has become such a talking point. pb was 59m until the last throw of the season when he did a 10m pb..... I am positive he will eventually get it together, one way or another.
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Post by nije on May 23, 2007 22:39:28 GMT 1
As am I but you cannot wish it can you. Walt Disney once said - if you can dream it you can do it - yes true - but there is a journey and a process involved and that is part of life's great adventures. I am sure Jon is doing his best, and maybe the lad is a slow learner - or cannot actually get out of the habits which seem obvious to many but difficult for him to implement. Good luck either way!
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Post by nije on May 23, 2007 22:40:23 GMT 1
If he was mark lewis francis - he would be crucified by now!
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on May 23, 2007 23:06:39 GMT 1
I neglected to say, he is also being mentored, as well as John, by Peter Yates. Tis tru you cannot wish it, or I would be able to throw too.....but he will get there, slowly or otherwise, as will John.
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Post by sam on May 23, 2007 23:24:33 GMT 1
82m this year at this stage at a guess.. but it's down to him and his coach to be willing to change something which is kinda effective.. Sam - can you explain this one - are you saying that Merv could throw 82m this year!! I certainly hope not as there is no way he can. Now, he has the potential to throw far, but there are so many fundamental things wrong with his technique that there is no way he will throw that distance this year. Yes he has a big hit on him and gets into (not all the time) a good throwing base, but there is masses that are wrong at the moment. I am not going to elaborate in detail but those who have an appreciation of throwing technique should understand - Merv is probably 2-3 years away from throwing 80+, his technique from what I have seen hasn't really altered that much in the last 12 months either. Sorry to rant, and this is no slight on Merv as I recognise that he is one of the very few throwing talents we have, but lets gain some perspective and not loose sight on what it does take to throw 80+. Tom YEs..if he was standing up and throwing forwards instead of upwards i believe that the sheer power this guy has he would throw 82m. think about it.. he is throwing 71m forwards and 71m upwards and sideways all at the same time... i would be drilling him to stand up and aim to throw the javelin at something low in the distance.. maybe then he would be channelling all that awesome power through the javelin in the direction it is needed. he is wasting so much of his power by throwing it so damned high
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Post by dobster on May 24, 2007 11:24:03 GMT 1
[ YEs..if he was standing up and throwing forwards instead of upwards i believe that the sheer power this guy has he would throw 82m. think about it.. he is throwing 71m forwards and 71m upwards and sideways all at the same time... i would be drilling him to stand up and aim to throw the javelin at something low in the distance.. maybe then he would be channelling all that awesome power through the javelin in the direction it is needed. he is wasting so much of his power by throwing it so damned high Sam - have to disagree and I believe you have missed the point (no pun intended) here. If all of our throwers did as you say then it may enable them to throw a long way - however, to be able to get into that position, you need to create it from 4-5 strides back. Merv doesn't do this, in fact he does many of the basics very wrong. His run up is poor, his transition is poor, so is his run off and pre-delivery, he lands badly, seperates on the throw and throws up rather than out. If you have the basics wrong drilling just a forward throw will not help at all - it is only looking at the effect and not the cause. Now I am not one for completing lengthy coaching articles on a web, preferring instead to advise the individual in person, so I am not going to go into any detail here. Needless to say, if Merv wants to progress (which I know he does) then him and his coach and the coaching mentor need to address some of the fundamentals of his throwing technique. This hasn't been done in the preceeding 12 months. He needs to go back to some basics of throwing technique and apply them. This is why I say it will take him 2-3 years at least, hypothesising an 82m throw is wrong. Fortunately for Merv he has a great hit on him and is able to get into (at times) a great throwing base - this is where his 70+ throws come from - but if he doesn't change the basics then he wont progress, he will continue to injure himself and wont fulfill his undoubted potential. Dont want to appear negative or that I am bashing Merv - but, some things need saying and if we cant do it on here then where can we do them!! Tom
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Post by nije on May 24, 2007 13:43:01 GMT 1
There are some basics he does wrong and I am suprised they have not been rectified by either Jon or Peter - however, this may be due to the fact that he is not a good learner or has bad self awareness of his posture. I saw him throw 70m or so last year at bedford and he was hitting it far harder than anyone else out there so I can agree with Sam on this one. Maybe not 82 but not far off it. I only saw him at Eton this year and he was a little shocking so I'll hold my judgement on this one.
Also- in fairness to Sam - he is out there coaching an array of athletes all with individual strengths and weaknesses. I'm not sure how much PEte is doing with Merv but if it is once every moth or blue moon - I would not exactly call that coaching. He can claim success if the lad does well, or wash his hands slightly if he is not doing well claiming that he doesn;t see him enough putting him in a pretty comfortable position.
This isn't a dig at you Tom or anyone else for that matter, but it is OK for us to arm chair coach and postulate about the lad but getting your hands dirty and actually coaching is alot harder than calling it from afar. I am sure there are a few of us out there who would like a crack at Merv and some with a coaching background that suggests that they could do it. Coaching is not as easy as that and eventually, as I suggested in a previous thread - your record will indicate what sort of coach you are. I know of many top coaches still dining out on an athlete they coached in the 70's 80's etc. What have you done lately is what the question should be and I look at coaches like Tony Hadley in the sprints, Stanley (edwards old coach) and Frank Attoh who actually do produce good athletes consistently year on year rather than get presented with a new batch from a UKA conveyor belt. We need to build this up within the throwing fraternity which has (javelin appart) been the weak link of the sport for far too long now in a time when standards are falling.
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Post by dobster on May 24, 2007 17:25:42 GMT 1
Fair call nije but I do disagree with some of what you say, but I will PM you my thoughts on this one as it is unfair to keep on talking about a thrower when he cant answer for himself.
With regards the arm chair coach thing - I know you were not having a dig and to be honest the one thing I have always tried to do is stay away from coaching online. However, on this occassion I have had to speak out. There have been far too many individuals willing to accept mediocrity and that sometimes you have to speak out. Time and again I have seen comments that attempt to propel individuals into something they either are not or have not matured into, perhaps this irritation has got the better of me this time?
Yes I have dabbled in coaching over the past 2 years and I know this is the direction I will go in (in due course), however, with the busy job I have and other committments I just cannot sustain that role at the moment. I know that I have a fairly good eye for the event and have been extremely lucky to have trained with Mark, Stu and Goldie, spent a bit of time in Finland and have been coached by both Tim N and Mike Mc and I have learnt a lot from them and still continue to do so. Yep I have done my Level 3 coaching blah courtesy of the UKA scheme and have other attributes that have been honed from my time in the military. One thing the above has taught me is to listen to everyone and consider what they are saying. I never disregard someone's opinion at first glance but will always try to consider their intent. In this case I have listened to someone's view and decided that it wasn't as simplistic as they were making out.
I hope this clarifies a few things
Tom
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Post by nije on May 24, 2007 22:11:52 GMT 1
Hi tom
Yeah good point, hence why I said I wasn't having a dig and I think it is good that we comment on people's points and why I agreed with what you are saying about mediocrity as you are bang on and also in Sam's case - he is busy as well (I think - -but as he spends so much time bloggin maybe not! - only joking sam!) as he is seeing a wide range of abilities adn in fairness to the lad - is getting some good results out of his throwers. The big thing for any of us as coaches is then to see if we can take good athletes to the next level and this is where some of our more high profile coaches across a range of events have been found wanting. I don't want to appear to be having a dig again at Tony Lester but the article that I just spruced over could have read - the key to my success is actually - I haven't really taken too many people from zero to hero but have recently been sent alot of good athletes in my direction and some of them have done well, some haven't, some have got injured, some have moved to other coaches etc as anyone would expect.
I'm not sure if he is a good model to go by as he is assigned alot of talent and as of yet, he had no answers fro MLF - arguably the best tlaent we have. Malcolm Arnold, as good as he is, hasn't improved (in terms of time) Jason Gardner from his previous coach adn you could argue that he hs got Pickering on the way up! Of course he is a good coahc but then it does get difficult to then proove it sometimes. IF I was Dave Lease (JG's previous coach) I would be a little pissed off that MA seems to be getting all of the praise when he actually didnlt improve - a fact that everyone seems to have missed or conveniently ignored. Ashia HAnsen jumped her world indoor record just after leaving Frank Attoh I was told and frank has continued to produce good athletes while her new coach and also throws guru(!) has struggles to keep her or his son fit!
All things that have to be considered when determining what makes a good coach - but UKA are seemingly happy with their choices as they continue to employ them!
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Post by nije on May 24, 2007 22:37:28 GMT 1
Sorry one more point!
That group that you were with to be fast tracked did cause a little bit of irritation to many as it would be interesting to know how many of those on that course actually are coaching now or have been active in clubs. Mark, as far as I know, does not and soley trains his long term friend and trianing partner and has appeared to do a great job. You stated that you are to busy at present - I spoke to a couple of people I know who were on the course who have blatently told me that they hae no intention of coaching unless they are getting paid or a job out of it! Also, there were a few people on that course who could probably do with going though a process of extended learning as one recently told a delegation of around 100 coaches all about over distance training when he actually meant over speed - yes it is splitting hairs and it is great that this coach is involved in putting back into the sport - while I assume taking money back out for his time - but it did get up some fo the delegates noses!
I am ranting a little now but I did a jav course once and some of the coaches were insistent that for a warm up they should do a jav routine that I think Mike Mc does and probably you do Tom and I said that was fine as it was only part of the warm up and there ar many wasy of doing to and when I questioned why they did what they did - they could only answer, because we were showed to do it like this!
Doing something for the sake of it and blindly as well - like all these plonkers doing these various running and hurdle drills (incorrectly) and then running with poor technique because such and such a coach showed them - really starts getting silly. Go on to U tube and see the variety of jav exercises people do and have a go and introduce them for variety but try and get an explanation of how to do it properly and what it is for.
In the US - I saw alot of good sprinters doing some drills and then do some incredible speed sessions with variable recoveries. These guys ran fast as they knew their opponents woul be running fast and basically you had to be fit and guess what -US sprinters look as fit as butchers dogs generally speaking. Put some of our girls in the mix and they stand out a mile as unfit. Jade Johnson is not unfit looking - but has had her arse kicked by local college students all over the US and possibly some who display techniques last seen on an episode of we are the champions! But they are lean, mean and motivated. Marion Jones had a horendous technique boardering on embarrassing but she hit the board at 10.7 speed and she jumped 7m! Dreshler did the same speed with a proper technique and jumped 7.50m - Not rocket science now is it.
Sometimes,a s coaches, I think we blind ourselves with technical this and that when we ignor the obvious. Like the computer game track and field, you need to generate as much speed then hit the right angles (I used to rub a coin between the buttons to cheat!) adn lo and behold you jump and throw further - thus we train in a regime that achieves this!
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Post by sam on May 24, 2007 23:59:57 GMT 1
I do blog quite a bit nigel you are right.
I find it hard to really get down what is in my head regarding javelin throwing though..which is odd because i can write about everything and anything else till my fingers fall off.
I have been in and around javelin throwing all my life having grown up watching fatima train day in day out, i have been to see coaches all over the country and researched throwing from sources all over the world. Javelin is my passion hence this site. I seem to have a knack of making even the worst looking kids improve beyond all belief..some stay on with it and some others improve but then leave because it's not cool.. i haev been coaching/teaching/training people since i started Senior school because even then i knew more than the teachers..
we keep talking about great coaches.. but what makes them great.. when did they stop being just coaches and suddenly get referred to as great? is it to do with age? is it to do with the number of international vests you produce?
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Post by jeremy on May 25, 2007 1:28:50 GMT 1
fascinating debate. apologies fore long post but this has to be said
I just sent an email to a multieventer who asked me for some help in the javelin. Here's what I sent her by email. We has a great session on a normal club night, people drifting in and out, very tuned in to how she currently threw and what, in her mind, was going to make her throw further. All the ideas to throw further came from her mouth, as my style of coaching is to ask questions.
I feel that once, as a coach, you've moved passed the instruction faze, your only valuable input as a great coach is to ask questions and encourage questions back.
""""As per my text, I was very impressed today. The javelin is a complex event but we can try to keep it simple, especially as you are a multi-eventer.
The key aspects of javelin are:
Striking the hip: we do this with the right foot
Stopping with the left foot, and leaning the left shoulder (and arm) across the right side of the body: this is called “ blocking”
Then, and only then, we pull the javelin through (with a straight arm) over the left leg (the blocking leg) The real key is generating the “separation” of the movements and doing them in the right order!!!!
Of course most of this is completely unnatural, but you have been blessed with the talent (and coached by "bloke who left club") that means you can do most of this quite well.
We’ll work on the 3 components over the next few weeks (Thursdays I have my coaching hat on!). I Look forward to working with you and to the progress that I know you’ll make. """""
This, I know is basic stuff, but I believe that these key things that I stated (having watched her throw a few times) are pretty much the basic key things that she needs to work on.
I've made this post because:
a) it's about javelin and this is the javelinclub forum
b) I want aggressivley to attack all coaches who haven't heard of Rudyard kipling's six best friends. If you don't this then you're a crap coach. BTW RK's six best friends are "Who, what why where, when, how", the only 6 words that if staring a queation can't get a yes or no answer.
c) Anyone with talent I find I introduce to other coaches. Who';s that? Wilf knows thwm all. my moneyt's on Yates.
d) Sam and Jimbo I'm in contact with a lot, but I always ask Parker, Sharpe, Hill, Bevan, Paish, Dobster, Tessa, regular questions to help improve what I can pass on to people, and for myself.
e) I want the javelin community to understand and come together on the 2 ears one mouth strategy.
f) Merv and his coach aren't travelling up and down the country to try and throw less than 85 metres. They are a partnership that needs support and nurture. I'm unhappy about some of the posts that imply that this "if only I had a couple of sessions with him I'd sort it out............"
g)There are coaches on here having a go at Merv's technique who have clearly never heard of Rudyard Kipling (see earlier)
h) As coaches, never take credit for one of your student's birthday's, you aren't ther mother or father (on the whole) and Pb'ing is the nom for kids not "backslapping I invented the wheel bollox
i) which is the ninth point and the last. Never expect to put into an athlete what God left out, or is still putting in. Learn how to nurture the nature through people skills. Otherwise you'll be a loser.
Please give your feed back. In a nutshell I'm saying that we havve some good coaches and some shite coaches. let's get the forum sorting this out.
By the way, If there's a javelin coach ouy there call Ken Holmes. can you pm me because we need to catch up. Your name's cropped up!If anyone out ther knows ken Holkes could you ask him to contact me.
Thanks
Jeremy
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Post by nije on May 25, 2007 8:19:15 GMT 1
HI Sam
what makes a great coach - i.e. better than an average coach - is someone who can improve athletes or take them to a higher level than perhaps they would not have achieved without you. Over a long period of time you will see coaches regularly producing good athletes to international level and many who don't - so would look at the one's I mentioned above as great coaches as they regularly make good people better. Pretty straight forward really I think.
And Jez - I like the Kipling thing a bit too public school for me.
I looked at another site who were basically defending the right to criticize on an open forum and I think I agree, as long as it isn't rude or personal. As long as your athletes enjoy what they do and you can motivate them, then that is a good start. Knowing what your talking about is also pretty important. I think that a coach who can regularly coach (not poach) good athletes to make them better should be regarded as an advanced/good coach. If they can take them onto senior medal winning performers (many of them) then I guess that would make them great.
Just because MLF hasn't gone any where with TOny Lester doesn't make lester a bad coach as he has success with some and less success with others - proving that you cannot get it right all of the time.
Jeremy, you are a deep thinker!!!!!!!
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Post by slinger on May 25, 2007 8:57:39 GMT 1
a deep thinker? more like the red wine was cracked open lastnight by the look at the time of the posting! ;D i can't talk i had a few beers -
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Post by sadiemk on May 25, 2007 11:16:43 GMT 1
merv looked good in training last night he looked 6 foot 5 when he was throwing, down the middle of the run way and point down ! lets hope we can see this monday !
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