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Post by tomd on Oct 17, 2005 13:37:53 GMT 1
i think tom doesn't like them very much because they make you look abit odd - he likes looking all macho with his elastic bands!!!!! Nothing wrong with my rubber fetish young lad ;D
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Post by slinger on Oct 17, 2005 13:54:16 GMT 1
sam - now you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we all have a secret rubber fetish!! - don't we?
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Post by slinger on Oct 17, 2005 13:55:49 GMT 1
man, one of you charlies has smited me!!!!! what the hell have i done? !!!!!!!!!
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Post by Patience on Oct 17, 2005 22:42:21 GMT 1
Isn't it funny (or rather not) how your maximums change when you use one of these strange squat machine contraption thingies that some gyms have? Alas now that I'm stuck in the deepest and very darkest bits of the country where the inbreeds are[/i] the intelligent people I get to use one of these strange devices. On the plus side, it's nice to have stops which can give a lot of confidence to allow you to pile* the weight on without having to panic about it all going horribly wrong. It is very bizarre the way it's all so solid! I got very strange looks when I was doing back squat as it turns out I fiddle with my feet a wee bit. Never noticed it with a free bar, but try it with one of these machines and the whole thing starts to move! I can now kid myself that my bench is just about to get out of mediocre and my squatting is almost reasonable. The one thing I will have to try and remember is it's empty weight is 30kg and not 20kg like the bar! Still, it all adds to the fun! *pile on the weight - girlie talk for adding another 1.25kg. ;D
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Post by slinger on Oct 18, 2005 12:32:49 GMT 1
hope you aren't refering to all northern'ers as being unintelligent!!!!!!!!!!!
i personally don't like machines, with some you don't get a full contraction over the full range and also they are usually only in one plane [squats and bench particulary] so they definately aren't as effective as a free bar, on the plus point though they do give you more confidence of being safe!!!! get some spotters instead and head for the 'real' stuff!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Patience on Oct 18, 2005 21:10:11 GMT 1
Slinger, petal, you are a southerner to me! I really do live and work in the deep, dark parts of the country - thee bits your parents should have warned you about - or at least mine should have warned me! Due to work really getting in the way of training, my second gym is very cramped and on the off chance a couple of the body builder type people took their eyes off the piccies in the magazine and lifted the bar onto my shoulders, I wouldn't fancy my chances of being able to utter the appropriate grunt for "Help!" ;D Fortunately, my other gym is slightly bigger, and does have some semblance of a squat rack, but alas, it has no bale out bars. I have often thought of asking the staff to spot for me, but as that generally consists of a little lady who is old enough to be Slinger's granny or whatever the PC term is for the YTS boy, I suspect they may not quite be up to the task. Still, every now and again a proper human appears and everything is happy!
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Post by JB on Oct 19, 2005 16:00:32 GMT 1
gotta agree with slinger here, i reckon they call what your on about a smith machine. nobody should state there squat pb if its on a smith or whatever they are called. its far easier than normal as you only control the up and down. as a jav thrower core strength is very crucial and doing traditional free lifting is far better for this. when you squat on an open bar you may not realise but your giving your abs a massive workout just to balance the bar controlling it though 3 dimensions, on the smith thing all of this is done for you by the machine.
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Post by JB on Oct 19, 2005 16:02:41 GMT 1
hmmm suppose if there are no bale out bars you may have to stay with smith thing, not sure if you get more benefit from a heavy smith lift or a medium squat
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Post by eggbert000 on Oct 19, 2005 16:19:09 GMT 1
Got to agree with jb on this i have used the smith machine and you dont need to do as much work lifting on the machine as doing it freely if you can work freely its a much better workout but as you have no 1 to spot for you it can be effective by using the smith machine.
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Post by Patience on Oct 19, 2005 19:12:23 GMT 1
I'll still be doing free weight squats once a week round my other gym. You get used to having noone to squat and become very aware of when not to push it. The downside is that I tend to err on the side of caution and not push it as much as I should. Still, a trip up to Grangemouth once a month, if I can, means I get to use their gym. If you've neer seen it, it is wonderful. Lifting platforms, great squat racks.........ooo, I'm itching to get there.
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Post by Administrator on Oct 19, 2005 21:52:46 GMT 1
presumably most or all athletes should be going through some kind of conditioning phase currently, so performing 1 rep maxs, certainly won't tell you if the training you are doing is working. I'm still confused, we did those tests not to see where we are now but to have a starting point from which we can relate to later in the season when we are doing heavier lifts. The work we are conditioning at the moment in preparation for harder work through the winter. Didn't realised this would get jumped on so much. I'm not convinced that doing some controlled 1 RMs is really going to do that much damage, maybe I'm wrong but I haven't seen it yet. In fact after doing weight training for 5 or so years I've never had an injury and from throwing in that time I've had to have 5 operations through the sport.
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Post by slinger on Oct 20, 2005 14:36:38 GMT 1
confused? ? i'll explain!!! i know you were only doing those lifts as a basis so you can work out what percentages to lift off when you seriously start to lift in the 'real' winter, but this could lead to a lack of progression!!! - work off your current 'actual' PBs, with correct planning and a good schedule you'll be increasing your 1 rep max [PB] during your max. strength phase thus meaning you are getting stronger - if you worked off your bests from that first session then you'll run the risk of not progressing and therefore the training not being beneficial - unless your name is "David Parker" and you are already strong enough in that department to throw a javelin into oblivion!!!! as for the theory in doing 1 rep max's whilst you are conditioning being detrimental is firstly you WILL be slow, and although when lifting heavy weights you may look very slow you are actually using your fast twitch fibres in your muscles and are TRYING to move that bar as fast as possible - thus the two being very contradicting types of training, an interesting point is that some people in the heavy throws like to have a 1 rep max before they actually compete in the summer, secondly something else that is interesting is the fact that whilst conditioning you will be quite fatigued [if you are doing it right!!! - important point!] and again your muscles will be tired, your brain will be tired and your lifting technique will suffer as a result, possibly incurring an injury!!!! this is one of the reasons why most athlete's don't throw javelins till this phase is finished - because their minds aren't able to cope with the complexities of javelin throwing technique.
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Post by lasher2 on Oct 20, 2005 17:15:58 GMT 1
It has to be said matey that you do talk some sense sometimes! The point is, that lifting may be detrimental to throwing anyway. Of course it enables one to increase the amount of force that they can exert on the ground, which would therefore lead to the notion that the javelin should go further. True it should go further, but it very rarely does unless you are a youngster who has just started lifting weights. What needs to be understood is that it is great to have challenges in training as it stimulates the competitive spirit in us all, something which I love more than most. The fact that I am good at most of the training tests etc is purely down to the fact that I hate losing. But if I had spent more time developing the javelin related exercises and less time on the Olympic platform, then i am sure i would have made my breakthrough by now. Javelin throwing should be treated in a similar way to weightlifting. Quite simply put, the more you throw and drill and basically strengthen up your throwing bits, the further you will throw. If you spend 3 gym sessions a week olympic Lifting, you will of course develop power, but this is not throwing power. The key for me is developing the link between what is done on the platform and the force you can put through a javelin from maybe stading, or 3 strides. This link is the run up. The better we all get at throwing off a run up, the further we will all throw. As a biomechanist, I know for a fact that it is more than pointless throwing off 3 strides in training and almost as pointless throwing off 5. Without going into much detail here, off these run up lengths there are no braking forces acting on the left leg as the run off is entered. When the run up length increases, the braking forces are more prevalent as the body is already setting itself up to stop abruptly behind the line! This is the mind taking over the body. A technical note to finish on is that we should all be working on running hard off the left leg throughout the withdrawel phase of the throw to minimise the braking force exerted on the left leg (or right if you are cag handed....like Sam Allen from Leeds!!!) and maximise the propelling force, therefore ensuring that maximum amount of impulse is carried into the throw and hence greater ground reaction forces are exerted on the left leg. This as i have found through my studies leads to a greater release velocity and that is the sinlge most important fact in determining distances! Slinger mate....give me a shout later as I want to talk to you about Michaels throwing! laters D
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Post by slinger on Oct 20, 2005 21:05:34 GMT 1
will do mate, i'll ring this w/end i'm cream crackered this week.........worked my day off and i've done 3 late shifts as well as earlies - but the cash is much needed - you know me i like to count my pennies!!!!!! [it's true i am a tight arse!!!] nice to see you echo my views on the run up situation!!!! - but i knew you thought that anyway!!! - we did grow up doing this thing together!!!!!!! "it's the slinger and lasher show!!!" ha ha!!!
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Post by tomd on Oct 21, 2005 0:15:48 GMT 1
James, the bottom line is that you have to work on what is right for you. I know where both Phil and Dave are coming from and what they write makes perfect sense. However, you have been around a fair while and know your body and particularly how it reacts to training stimuli.
For me, I always lifted during the conditioning phase. Normally around the 6-8 rep range. It is something I enjoyed doing (fun and enjoyment are a big part of the conditioning phase) and never became injured from (since the weight is reasonably light the chances of mediocre form impacting on potential injury is minimal). Also at this stage, like you, I quite enjoyed the early challenge of seeing what my 1RM was at the earliest stage and to be honest I would use this 1RM to gauge my other percentages for lifting. I never believed in the efficacy of using your best ever 1RM as the base for working out a conditioning lifting routine, it never made sense (as normally I found I was quite a distance from that best effort) and it made the lifting routine neigh on impossible to complete so was therefore not pratical to use (training benefit certainly decreased). For me I never suffered in terms of strength development when utilising this strategy.
However, just to pick up on one point. I don't view that there is anything wrong with throwing Javs during the conditioning stage. Provided you don't expect perfect form (an aspect which could be argued against) and you use the opportunity to basically keep the body (and importantly the throwing muscles) ticking over using short stabbing throws and throwing gently from a 3 or 5 stride approach will do you no harm at all. But note the cautionary element here, I would advise against using these sessions as technical opportunities to develop perfect form, but a simple opportunity to 'keep the engine running'.
For the younger throwers, try both approaches as advertised in this thread. Only through trial and error will you learn what is right for you as an individual thrower.
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