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Post by thebear on Jun 21, 2007 17:59:02 GMT 1
A quick right hip strike and plant of the left to me seems to be the determining factor in athletes of similarish abilities. The earlier and quicker - the further the throw.
Apologies but assuming right handed thrower - If you look at any videos/pictures those that get off their right foot early "soft step" and strike their hip create the best separation and thus get their left foot down before any chest/arm strike.
Many people seem to get stuck on the right or achieve this on slower shorter run ups. I think many can relate to the fact that sometimes they can throw just as far off 5 strides as a run up.
So questions is do people agree and how is this skill best learnt/achieved?
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Post by Administrator on Jun 21, 2007 18:10:54 GMT 1
I and I'm sure many others will agree with you on this one that the right foot and right leg movement into the block is a key factor. I'd say there are 3 key things (among others) that affect the effectiveness of the right leg and the speed that the left block comes down at and they are as follows: 1. The rythm of the cross steps and the amount of work that is done on the penultimate left leg cross step or "run off". If the left leg works hard to drive the body forwards, make a lot of ground and "jump over a puddle" as some describe it then it is possible for the left leg to then get out in front of the body extended before the right foot even touches down. 2. The angle of the right foot has been discussed a lot on this and other forums and the answer is always the same. The right foot on the peunltimate stride should not face to 3 o'clock (i.e. parallel to the scratch line or perpendicular to the way the body is moving) but should be at 2 o'clock (pointing more forwards by 30 degrees) or even further forwards than that. 3. The angle of the foot is important but if the wrong part of the foot lands then it is quite likely a lot of speed and energy is absorbed into the leg and a "sitting" position is created over the right knee. In order to allow the right foot to actively turn so that the right heel kicks outwards and the hip forwards it is important that the athlete lands on the front or ball of the foot and ideally on the indide of the foot (the side of the big toe). For a great example of this go to the link immediately below of Vasilevskis when he hit a huge foul. He almost lands on the inside of his right foot and the turn and movement is incredibly quick - very much like that of Zelezny in his world record throw. thejavelinclub.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=vids&action=display&thread=1181049216I am sure there are more factors to include in this but these will now be the 3 key areas I will focus on when thinking about the position and action of the right foot in training to carry accross to competition.
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Post by Administrator on Jun 21, 2007 18:33:21 GMT 1
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Post by Patience on Jun 21, 2007 22:01:02 GMT 1
One thing that I have never been able to understand is "soft right leg".
What is that?
How on earth do you go about achieving it? Alas when I think soft, my brain gets as far as collapse and certainly isn't into any heel movement.
Similarly, when we ask athletes to drive the right knee into the ground, is there another way of expressing this for those that can't get their mind/body to work that one out?
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Post by jeremy on Jun 22, 2007 9:12:30 GMT 1
Hi Patience,
"Soft right Leg"
This and many other terms "have a lenghty impulse stride", I have always found confusing as I've never been a "jargon" type guy. Besides different words/phrases meqan different things.
At the final stage of the run-up, your right foot comes down prior to throwing after a long final stride that is started with your left foot. This is called by some "the impulse stride". The right foot is "soft" because it has to start turning and pushing forward immediately, before the left leg comes down to "plant". At this point, the body weight is being kept back until the right foot has caused the right hip to turn (or strike). Once the right foot has landed softly, on it's ball (rather than flat, with its heel on the ground), it triggers the whole sequence of the throw.
1. Wilf Paish calls it "kicking the right heel out fast". Zelezny called "pushing the right knee to the floor", Nieland calls it "throwing your hip down the run-way". I.E. A different set of words all to achieve the same thing. Slinger's written loads of good stuff on this.
In order to achieve this phase you have to get your run up to get your feet in front of you (to keep your weight back). This can be achieved by making sure your head is behind your right foot.
The right foot MUST start it's work before the left foot comes down.
Then you land on your left foot (heel first, so it doesn't collapse), hopefully your left shoulder and arm are blocking. Then you pull through (chuck!) the javelin, last, over the top of your planted left foot which is solid, and that ginves you some height on the throw.
The video that jimpo put on shows this really well, especially in slow mo. So does the Backley video. They are really good sources for how to get into a good position, and what needs to be done and how the movemnetns are separated. I always use the backley vid to illustrate the various points. During a session we'll look at one or maybe two aspects at the most. And then build from there.
Most people (like me) have already thrown the spear before we've got into the correct position. Typically the right foot doesn't start "pushing/kicking out" fast enough, before our left leg comes down, and our throwing arm has already started throwing.
These 2 videos really are good at showing what needs to be done.
It's still not easy, but you can only pracitise and keep practising it (0nce of course you're comfortable with what the sequence is and how best to execute it)
Jeremy
PS, I looked at some of Slinger's postings on this very subject as one of the guys I help needs to get more out of his legs and his throwing position is too upright. I then spoke to Slinger to clarify, and now we know what we're working on.
PPS, I believe that it's crucial to be able to understand in a "crystal clear way", what needs to be worked on as how else can it be demonstrated for the athlete in question to get his or her head round what needs to be done.
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Post by nije on Jun 22, 2007 10:10:26 GMT 1
Soft on the right, hard on the left!
You need to be soft on the right foot so (Unlike the shot in rotation when many ask you to load the right foot) it does not have a breaking effect - thats the left foot's job. If you are too heavy, you kill your speed - you arm basically overtakes you and you don't necessarily get good range from the arm and as you have been too heavy on your right, you cannot turn it quickly so you end up ahead of yourself in the throw and ususally get little penetration or wnd up head butting your knee.
The footwok Zelezny drills were designed so your right foot at landing would be at right nagles to your shin, not facing down to then sink the bodyweight over it and absorb too much momentum. It is easy to demonstrate than verbalise! Look at NIck's foot as siad before, he is turning his right beofer his left hits the ground to get good range and hard block
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Post by Administrator on Jun 22, 2007 11:54:25 GMT 1
I think the "soft" and "hard" relates to the impact the step has on the speed and momentum of the throw. The right foot in effect is "soft" as it is a continuation of speed and momentum in the direction of the throw and the left leg is "hard" because it breaks the momentum in the direction of the run and throw and creates forces through the body.
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Post by thebear on Jun 22, 2007 15:09:31 GMT 1
Makes sense but if you are not currently able to do this - how would you go about coaching/ perfecting this skill?
Nije mentions zelezny foot drills, but what should you concentrate on when throwing - I mean are there any tips, thoughts that go through your head that can help
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Post by nije on Jun 22, 2007 16:05:21 GMT 1
When you land on your right foot kcik throuhg and land flat footed - not on the toe and then collapse onto your flat foot position i.e. your right foot should be at right angles to your shin, on parrallel to the ground, as it lands so you can be active and fast off it, not bring your weight to bare from toe to flat foot - absorb the body weight for a fraction of a second - making the body overtake or catch up with the throw - and mess the timing up.
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mike
Pitkamaki
Posts: 119
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Post by mike on Jun 22, 2007 17:56:35 GMT 1
Not possible to achieve without the rest of the body being in the right position even before the impulse stride, as a good impulse stride is dictated by that. Just a long impulse stride on its own will not result in soft right, as will just trying to land on it soft. The end result is always dictated by what has taken place before it, and before that , and before that etc. Otherwise, heavy, heavy right, not able get properly get onto left leg, and it'll be very slow, and so the upperbody will take over before you've landed, as Nige has said, and that is almost always where any technical problem comes from, for everyone one.
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Post by nije on Jun 22, 2007 20:32:02 GMT 1
Agree - it depends how you get there. I have ochaced poeple who cannot do very much in this position as the lack the athletic abiliity to get out of it or even get into it! Photo stills are great but you hae to look at the big picture to see how you got there. Cause and effect. I used to throw far when my legs felt sharp as my upper body wasw relatively consistent, just sluggish legs now and then would let me down - although if you see some of my throwing - because I was pretty fast, I was off my right foot PDQ - my left side block was usually my problem off speed - a bit like Mick - it got a bit ugly when the red mist fell! Short approach - looked text book - but off a full run up I always felt I lost it over the last 2 strides creating forces inspite of my technique not becuse of it.
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Post by slinger on Jun 22, 2007 21:14:58 GMT 1
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Post by thebear on Jun 25, 2007 13:08:06 GMT 1
What a great article thanks
Only question is if this is so important I would assume it should be the focus of most of our training.
What drills, throwing sessions would anyone advise?
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Post by Administrator on Jun 25, 2007 13:53:33 GMT 1
In terms of drills as Nige mentioned before, Zelezny did some good ones. I have found some on our old website. To be honest, videos 8 and 9 are probably the most useful for this technical aspect which really represent the same drill. In the video this is done with a ball and the same drill could be performed with a standing jav throw. Some of the other videos may be of interest for general footwork and conditioning: thejavelinclub.homestead.com/zelezny.htmlI think this drill would be a good starting point before the same concept is attempted moving.
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Post by nije on Jun 25, 2007 16:34:17 GMT 1
I do different ones to this - but if you look at those, and didn't really know who he was, you'd be within your rights to think he was taking the piss! A but like pumping Iron when Arnold told one of his competitors, the latest thing was to growl like a lion every time you hit a pase. And the guy did it! I like doing the hurdle drills and the fasst feet drills over teh SAQ hurdles whihc I find really helpful. Cross over drills with feet at 90 deegrees to the ground and waling back on your heels to build up the strength. I also do these things the russians showed us for add/abductors where you drag your shoe ona cross over (walking) 10 each way to buidl up the add/abductors. The thing about the drills is that you do them properly then apply them to the throw. ie. maintian the foot position on right foot landing and work the hips and adductrs on the corss overs on both legs to generate speed. www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd7bibKVFFQ&mode=related&search=this isn't a bad video although there is no range on the cross overs, this is an interesting one of scott russel who is a front on thrower and seems like he relies on a baseball pitcher's arm! www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3D4FUe1U5k&mode=related&search=www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWj2E-ien6M&mode=related&search=this is quite interesting too www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JtM8XCFoNQ&mode=related&search=the back overheads wiht the med ball are waht I used to do when I threw them bad! So I was actualyl doing it good then, We do most of this stuff. www.youtube.com/watch?v=PksWVvxlzxg&mode=related&search=A little bit light in temrs of weight lifting but usuable techniques. You really see how good someone is technically when you start lfiting heavy. How many out there lift say 100kg for 5 and 105kg for 0! Down to having poor technique! I am doing a video soon and I'll post it for a laugh but everytime I get in the mood - it starts raining!!!!!
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