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Post by nije on Jun 25, 2007 16:52:38 GMT 1
Just looked at some of the trianign video's and the danish(?) guys ar edoign some really good stuff to be fair, however, much of the med ball is totally upper body and when they have the opportunity to use their legs as well - it is very sloppy and no effort it made to generate range from the bottom up. I can see why they are 65-72m throwers because they are obviously quite young and looking at their lifts quite weak.
I used to be quite good in the weights room but some of the weights they are using are very weak. Over head stuff like front press and pressing looked very light adn thier jumps looked pants TBH. There is one of Pitakamki hang cleaning what I can only make out to be 120 for 4 and making a bit of a meal of it, however, the speed he generates when he is throwing is pretty fricking awesome. The funny thing is that it doesn't look like it spends any time in the air at all.
I'd like to see him throw a few med ball, I bet he cracks them, unlike the Danes who look to be going through the motions in some of the fames. Great vid though and I hope something that all the senior throwers incorporate into their training!
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Post by slinger on Jun 25, 2007 20:37:14 GMT 1
this discussion has come up before on this vid...but tero has 145kg on the bar, doing his hang cleans
- 2 blue 20's, 4 yellow 15's, small metal/rubber 10's and collers [2.5kg each] and of course a 20kg bar.
tero has a very unique style of running being quite squat, but he does generate huge speed doesn't he and isn't a slouch on the runup either.
his jumping is nothing short of phenominal tbh, campbell and lasher were blown away by his ablilties at a recent warm weather trip....i think he PB'd in his bench there at 170kg and was consistently throwing high 80's with the jav.
he is a big lad too, 6' 5'' but is very lean, my wife saw him throwing at the weekend and got the obligatory pictures with him and she said he was very tall but very skinny and she actually said good looking too!!! hahaha!
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Post by Patience on Jun 25, 2007 21:49:07 GMT 1
So.....to simplify. First stage is to land with a flat right foot?
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Post by nije on Jun 26, 2007 8:11:23 GMT 1
...and facing 2 o'clock or less!
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Post by Administrator on Jun 26, 2007 9:52:53 GMT 1
So.....to simplify. First stage is to land with a flat right foot? When you say flat right foot do you mean with the whole foot on the floor? If so then I would say no, only the forefoot should land on the floor, not the heel.
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mike
Pitkamaki
Posts: 119
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Post by mike on Jun 26, 2007 14:43:37 GMT 1
Is that a flat foot like Zelezny and Makarov, probably the fastest and softest hips in the game???
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Post by Administrator on Jun 26, 2007 16:38:23 GMT 1
Not sure what your comment means Mike? Found some stills from Zelezny's WR throw, shows the action of the right foot quite well.
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Post by slinger on Jun 26, 2007 16:50:18 GMT 1
i don't get that last one mike?? i'm lost on this one a little bit....haha! - there have been great athletes who have landed either flat footed or even heal first - uwe hohn landed flat footed at FRFC, janis lusis very much heel first.......but this isn't for me the best way to achieve an early strike of the right hip.
i don't think nije suggests the right foot at FRFC should land so the whole flat of the foot contacts the ground and definately not so that it lands toe or ball orientated to then sink and go to the flat of the foot.
this is my idea on this, the right foot does indeed need to land ball orientated and remain so till it's "gliding contact" * for it to work and allow an early right hip strike prior to the left foot planting for delivery.
this isn't just a case of letting the right toes or ball make contact first, as the muscles in the calfs in the this "floppy toes" position are weak and will always make the right foot sink and go to the whole of the flat foot making contact and in doing this creates all sorts of further problems in meaning that the athlete achieves very little early use of the right hip and often a loss of run up momentum into the block.
imo the right foot should during the impulse stride be at a neutral position and be at pretty much a 90 degree angle with the shin, the foot is then worked to the ground, this is a very powerful movement - just a little example of this is to try and do standing 2 footed vertical jumps with minimal leg bend if you do them with saggy feet, toes pointing downward you'll always be very slow to work and react off the ground and you will sink to your flats, but if you bring your toes up to a neutral position and work them down to the ground you will find the reaction much quicker and the jump much higher, watch how sprinters - good ones - run and you will get the idea.
.........this is why you do and everyone should imo do the zelezny foot drills that backley brought back after training with zelezny after the olympics in 1996, of course they aren't new drills as hurdlers, sprinters and jumpers have been doing them for many years, but if you do them correctly you should always bring your toes to a neutral position, i do however still see many youngsters doing them though with "pointy" feet as if they are flicking sand.
these drills are great conditioning for the tiny little fixator/stabilisar muscles in your feet that give you the ability to hold the positions we are talking off during the throw.
your feet btw should work to a neutral position during any running, hurdle drills and javelin throwing too.
alot has been discussed about the way the right foot lands at FRFC and how it should and not land rather, but little has been said about it's position regarding where your body is or rather your centre of mass, imo the right foot should not land behind it, the right hip will never strike fully doing this and it leads to a rushed throw that's all very on top of itself, nor should the right land too far ahead of the bodies centre of mass as it acts as a braking force, is slow to get on the left and a throw that generally has de-celeration in it. The right foot should land slightly ahead of the centre of mass imo as this allows the athlete to get into a decent lay back position and gives the athlete time for the right foot to work and strike the right hip early before the left leg plants, Jan zelezny's right foot contact point is pretty much directly under his centre of mass on his WR btw, other throws of his it is slightly more ahead.
there also has been little discussion on how the right leg should behave during this whole movement and just and so prior to it, imo the right leg from impulse to FRFC should be slightly flexed [bent slightly] and this flex i feel shouldn't increase at contact, so in other words the right knee angle from FRFC shouldn't get bigger as this would suggest the athlete is "sitting."
here imo are a few key aspcts to allowing the right hip to strike early, as that essentially what the "soft step" is all about [not taking into consideration what the upper body is doing and working off the assumption that the athlete has good running form and posture]
1. the athlete lands at FRFC with left foot in an advanced state 2. the athlete at FRFC lands where the right foot has worked from a neutal position to the ground 3. the right foot at FRFC is at 2 o clock [if straight on is 12 and behind 6] and is just and so ahead of the bodies centre of mass. 4. the right foot at FRFC lands ball orientated and remains ball orientated ie doesn't sink. 5. the right knee and hip is allowed to continue going forward with no hinderances.
* the gliding contact of the right foot is where the right foot or toes rather remain in contact with the ground as the right hip strikes till after release.....you will often see marks made on the track by the shoes when doing this, a good right hip strike will show quite long marks as it shows how far the right hip has travelled, watch any really good javelin thrower - zelezny is a good example tbh and you will see from the point of FRFC through the hip strike and delivery to the point of release and you will see how much space his right hip has eaten up.
just a few more thoughts there.
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mike
Pitkamaki
Posts: 119
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Post by mike on Jun 26, 2007 17:13:20 GMT 1
Mr Slinger man, you answered that question yourself! I knew you would pick it up that obviously the best around today clearly do not land flat footed, yet posts keep saying flat foot = soft right. Just wondering why that would be mentioned?? I'm not confusing the issue, the contradictions are.
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Post by slinger on Jun 26, 2007 20:16:11 GMT 1
ok, i understand now! - mike it's a USA wording so it's bound to be confusing!!!
the soft action of the whole FRFC thing is the fact that you want to allow momentum to take the right hip forward and not where you land on the right and conciously think drive it forward, if you do this and be like the majority of athletes i've seen in the UK - you just sit and wait on the right and it doesn't do anything, it leads to a throw which has little forward momentum into the left leg block, the left leg just gets put down and not driven into, so little "bracing" effect is achieved and because of the slow nature of the right hip working the throw has very little separation as the the hip only begins to work fully as the left has eventually come down and the arm is already beginning to strike.
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Post by Patience on Jun 26, 2007 21:43:17 GMT 1
Well I am pleased to say, I am less wise tonight than I was last night. Big, big sigh.
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mike
Pitkamaki
Posts: 119
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Post by mike on Jun 26, 2007 22:28:52 GMT 1
I think you may have got confused. I actually meant "WHY ( the f%*k) IS EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT LANDING FLAT FOOTED TO ACHIEVE A ACTIVE SOFT RIGHT LEG WHEN CLEARLY BEST THROWERS WITH THE SOFTEST RIGHT LEGS DO NOT" This was the topic of discussion was it not!! Surely this is pretty clear. What I had said earlier about Zelezny and Makarov had a hint of sarcasim which clearly was missed, or worse, missed. Thought you'd be on it like a shot Slinger. Very disappointing!! Ha!
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Post by Administrator on Jun 26, 2007 22:58:25 GMT 1
I think you may have got confused. I actually meant "WHY ( the f%*k) IS EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT LANDING FLAT FOOTED TO ACHIEVE A ACTIVE SOFT RIGHT LEG WHEN CLEARLY BEST THROWERS WITH THE SOFTEST RIGHT LEGS DO NOT" This was the topic of discussion was it not!! Surely this is pretty clear. What I had said earlier about Zelezny and Makarov had a hint of sarcasim which clearly was missed, or worse, missed. Thought you'd be on it like a shot Slinger. Very disappointing!! Ha! I was confused because it followed a message which said you shouldn't land flat footed!
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Post by slinger on Jun 27, 2007 13:14:42 GMT 1
i am confused because i can't see where anyone has said you have to land flat to achieve a soft right leg action??? errm help!!
also btw a little bit of info on the zelezny vid of him doing standing and 5 stride ball throws.......
this vid is used on the US forum quite a bit to use as an example.
i have the actual VHS tape made from this very vid shot by john trower when backley was training with jan zelezny for the first time after the atlanta olympics. I have to say that the vid shows jan zelezny during a heavy training phase in january or february so is very tired, another point i've seen when jan is training and seen on other vids of him shot in training he doesn't mind letting some areas of technique suffer if he has one particular emphasis - for example i have a video of jan [or did have, i can't find it] throwing off 5 stride throws and off a short carry but all fixed feet, anyway the emphasis was very much on him being very soft with his right and letting it work immediately upon contact - jan's thoughts on this were to let his knee drop as his foot contacted the ground, not push it down or turn it, just to let it drop so much so his right knee would end up only inches off the ground but whilst doing this his left would collapse big time, it never seemed to bother him as if he wanted to jam a left leg on it he would and what a left leg! - this guy was an exceptional athlete and knows exactly what he's doing, i would not therefore condone this sort of idea of letting some areas suffer big time to most athletes, especially those still learning the basics of the event.
nije, pumping iron is a great film isn't it??? abit contrived, but very funny!!! - "it's like coming for me, all the time!!!!!!"
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Post by nije on Jun 27, 2007 13:39:10 GMT 1
If your whole foot is in contact with the ground such as disc or shot, you cannot rotate it. When we say flat I assume you men the ball of your foot, not on tip toes but not heel down. I was taught to run on my heels when I first started but I teach a soft right - landing (now on the inside of the foot rather than the outside or littletoe side - thanks for that gem slinger!) landing at about 2 o'clock and it should land with a parallel foot (not with the heels dug in). I once chatted with yatesy about it and we agreed that you shouldn't wear heel spikes on your right as you don't really need them - or in my case, don't use them.
Again if you are completely flat footed you cannot turn the right but you can roll it over collapsing the back part of your throw and you tend to end up getting ahead of yourself and butting yourself in the knee.
IF you can imagine a standing shot put, if you 'rock forward' as I call it with the right rather than turning it, you will always foul the board and naturally drop the left shoulder in release- now imagine doing that with a run up on it - you have got two hopes, no and Bob - and he's dead!
My thing about the right is that you don't come down on it in an exagerated platar flexion (pointed toes) position as all it does is encourage the body weight to sink and over load the right leg. If you have good momentum you can get away with it but also you can end up stressing the knee joint that can eventually injure you. If you haven't go the momentum or athletics ability at that point in time, and your foot lands at 3 o'clock or more, then you will eventually hurt your knee as one of my athletes has (again) and you will lack penetration through the throw.
PS Mike MCNEil is moving to Bury St Eddies and might do some more coaching, hopefully at Ipswich where we have a few good throwers - when I've left. WHICH IS A GOOD THING! He was officating at a multi events match the other day - how weird!
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