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Post by pj on Aug 29, 2007 8:36:30 GMT 1
Wow! Wanna job with UKA?
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Post by nije on Aug 29, 2007 18:49:24 GMT 1
Phil,
You like one or two others, seem to be egging for verbal battles. Sorry mate, but dismissing me by saying we were better in my day when there was no funding, is folly as it is actuially a point of fact. I refer to history to see what we were doing right then. Just like 4 years ago when we had 5 junior girl arond 50m and little was done for them. We now have funding better facilities and more coaches if you include the likes of Mark Me Sam Caroline, Jeremy and Alex Hruger and Phil Sharpe to name a few. I did OK with a year of Wilf and a muilit events coach with the odd session with a few coaches. SO time has moved on but we have not learned. With the increassed funding Opps and beter facilites - why aren't we better in all events? In don't actually see what point you are making Phil or are you joining someone elses agenda and attacking me. The fact is that if you want to succeed you have to travel to see a coach an in your area there has always been Wilf in whom you hold a high regard, so I woudl say you haev been pretty lucky having tasted the fruit myslef!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and there is Phil Sharpe now. Tom, being dismissive of people who 'only coach English school champs' is a suprising comment as well.
ABout the hot air and lack of action - I assume you are speaking for yourself as I know that peole like me, SAm , Caroline, Jez, and I assume Brian/Frank/Phil are out more nights a wek coaching. Sam has organised another jav fest and ther regions will be inviting coaches to regional get togethers as well as other events on the horizon so there ahs been some [progress adn has been reported on here somewhere - so you should get your facts right before making such misinformed statements. You shuold be going through your England regions offices and if nothing is done - complain as it is their job!
Out of interest - I thnk you will find that many of us have coached and trained while in full time employment and giving up a couple of hours 3-4 nights a week is generally how most coaches get by.
Out of interest Tom, exactly who are these few coaches who can coach to a senior vest standard (er 70m and 50m easily achieve senior vests these days!) as I can think of at least 15 coaches who have done that.
I am unsure who is actually preventing partnerships from forming as I now that a few of us - down south are organising things to be proactive over the winter and I have invited some of the 'northern gits' to visit wales this winter! Maybe you are outside the loop in Scotland/Baghdad/Midlands!!!!!!
One last thing Tom, of that fast tracked group of athetes who UKA got together of which you were one, how many of them are actually coaching at present or coaching at all? There was a considerable lack of forsight in that group being formulated and I wonder whow many of them coach any English schools, AAA's or international athletes? Mark Roberson is one although he hasn't generated much of a portfolio as of yet but I am sending him one or two this winter!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did I mention that there are 3 others as well as Matti!!!!!!!!
I feel hostility again creeping into this forum and I have already ditched two others or those reason. I generally like this one as I like the guys who run it or am to be run out of town on this one as well!
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Post by nije on Aug 29, 2007 21:27:23 GMT 1
A bit more positivity would be in order - some people on here are getting really arsy and I don't really know why. Some of you have your own website to be arsy on so keep this one for javelin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by dobster on Aug 29, 2007 21:46:49 GMT 1
Phil, You like one or two others, seem to be egging for verbal battles. Sorry mate, but dismissing me by saying we were better in my day when there was no funding, is folly as it is actuially a point of fact. I refer to history to see what we were doing right then. Just like 4 years ago when we had 5 junior girl arond 50m and little was done for them. We now have funding better facilities and more coaches if you include the likes of Mark Me Sam Caroline, Jeremy and Alex Hruger and Phil Sharpe to name a few. I did OK with a year of Wilf and a muilit events coach with the odd session with a few coaches. SO time has moved on but we have not learned. With the increassed funding Opps and beter facilites - why aren't we better in all events? In don't actually see what point you are making Phil or are you joining someone elses agenda and attacking me. The fact is that if you want to succeed you have to travel to see a coach an in your area there has always been Wilf in whom you hold a high regard, so I woudl say you haev been pretty lucky having tasted the fruit myslef!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and there is Phil Sharpe now. Tom, being dismissive of people who 'only coach English school champs' is a suprising comment as well. ABout the hot air and lack of action - I assume you are speaking for yourself as I know that peole like me, SAm , Caroline, Jez, and I assume Brian/Frank/Phil are out more nights a wek coaching. Sam has organised another jav fest and ther regions will be inviting coaches to regional get togethers as well as other events on the horizon so there ahs been some [progress adn has been reported on here somewhere - so you should get your facts right before making such misinformed statements. You shuold be going through your England regions offices and if nothing is done - complain as it is their job! Out of interest - I thnk you will find that many of us have coached and trained while in full time employment and giving up a couple of hours 3-4 nights a week is generally how most coaches get by. Out of interest Tom, exactly who are these few coaches who can coach to a senior vest standard (er 70m and 50m easily achieve senior vests these days!) as I can think of at least 15 coaches who have done that. I am unsure who is actually preventing partnerships from forming as I now that a few of us - down south are organising things to be proactive over the winter and I have invited some of the 'northern gits' to visit wales this winter! Maybe you are outside the loop in Scotland/Baghdad/Midlands!!!!!! One last thing Tom, of that fast tracked group of athetes who UKA got together of which you were one, how many of them are actually coaching at present or coaching at all? There was a considerable lack of forsight in that group being formulated and I wonder whow many of them coach any English schools, AAA's or international athletes? Mark Roberson is one although he hasn't generated much of a portfolio as of yet but I am sending him one or two this winter!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did I mention that there are 3 others as well as Matti!!!!!!!! I feel hostility again creeping into this forum and I have already ditched two others or those reason. I generally like this one as I like the guys who run it or am to be run out of town on this one as well! Nije - I think you have misinterpreted some of my points mate. I am in now way being dismissive of those who have coached English Schools medalists - its great and jolly well done to them - but you know yourself there is a difference between that level and coaching a very successful senior, as you do espouse on this issue quite often (and quite rightly in many cases). Noone is egging for verbal battles at all - Me PJ or anyone else. You yourself have said that this is a forum to express opinions. You have done so many times and so have others. That is healthy and what this community is all about. Lets not degrade that - it is actually a good thing and I do enjoy reading the many differing opinions from all of us who contribute. Noone has the right answer but we all have some good and valid points so I would hate for any to be missed or even dismissed. As for hot air - yep your right - a part of that was aimed at myself - I am guilty of that and so are many on this forum inlcluding yourself. We do not seem to communicate that well at times. There are some great initiatives being produced - JAVEFEST, Jezza trying to build a group of coaches, some regional build up etc but we were talking about this over 2 years ago. What it requires is someone to take the lead to coordinate and inform, via this forum - who is willing to step forward to fulfuill that? I genuinely cannot at the moment - I am far to heavily committed elsewhere (although I would like to), so any volunteers - perhaps you can Nije? As for the coaches who I think could coach at World Class and have got the ability to bring a good 15 year old to a successful senior (and who I would trust to do the job right) - You Nije, Mike McNeill, Robbo, Brian Parkes, Wilf, Tim Newenham. There are some other names who I cannot quite recall at the moment - now I obviously accept that I am in no way the authority on this and there are a few other coaches who I would suggest are on the periphery of the above - but when you look at it there arent too many and it isnt that encouraging. Perhaps you can add a few more names to the list as I do truly value your opinion on this. Regards the fast track coaching idea - yep it is a great idea, but when you examine the names they invited there wasn't a great deal of thought put into it. Thankfully Callum Orr did email out to a few of us to ask our opinion 12 months on the course and I said the same thing. Also there has been very little follow up and mentoring etc But it is a very good way to encourage athletes to get into coaching and try to put something back - but it is something that also needs more thought. I was lucky in that Caroline Franks put me forward as I was working with her and assisting with Jimbo and about 15 other younger javelin throwers in Cheltenham at the time - she saw me coaching and liked how I communicated to a broad spectrum of athletes. It certainly encouraged me to start to develop that aspect now that my throwing days are largely over - so lets not be too dismissive at an early stage. As for me - well working 10 - 12 hours a day, studying an additional 3 hours a night (equating to a 70+ hour week) and going through a divorce have all meant that I am unable to fully devote much time to coaching. My hours are far too inconsistent and I wouldn't be able to devote the time to do a good and thorough job. However, now being in Scotland I have been asked to contribute to the National Throws set up in more of a coaching role and have also helped out in some team managing as well. My intent was never to jump about saying I am a coach but to progress a bit more slowly than that. My aim was always to do more when I have finished my Masters. Yes I have the level 3 thing and yippee but I have much to learn, but also I have much to contribute. I have already PMd you the title of my Masters Thesis so hopefully that gives an indication of how else I am contributing to the event and athletics. Finally - I have not witnessed much hostility on here. Disagreement certainly, but that is healthy. Just because some of us have differing opinions there is no need to feel paranoid that there is an agenda out to get you. I certainly am not and value your input (even your crap spelling ;D). Regards Tom
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Post by nije on Aug 29, 2007 23:56:27 GMT 1
HI Tom
It's not crap spelling, just typo's I couldn't be bothered to change! There is hostility on here and other sites mate - just read pj's response top Jezza who likes to embelish his posts with humour but his comments about me, him and sam going over jav stuff at my place may have been thought to have been informative by many and Phils retort did not seem to appreciate the subsance of what we did and was rather distainfully dismissed ! As coaches we should sit down and discuss techniques and why we adopt or adapt them.
Some regional build up - this is the responsibility of the regions to sort out with the national coaches and you won't be aware of this but people like me and sam, Ken have basically got our winter programmes sorted as should sharpie and co. This is the paid england regional officers responsibility to overlook so much has gone on that you may not be aware of. So that should answer your 3rd paragraph.
The thing that bothered a few about that course was that some people were told by who they were nominated by that there would be jobs for some of them in the future and I believe you were told that you had been identified as future and potential top coaches. Many had never coached up 'til then or since as I have spoken to quite a few of them. One thing that bugged me at the time was that I would not have minded been selected for that having coached athletes who had prepersent GB at the world schools, euro and world junior and commonwealth/junior commonwealth games for a 2/3 year period and this lack of recognition was a little disappointing i.e. I had a porfolio of improving international athletes. I also didn't appreciate that discus throwers and mulit eventers who had been placed a throws coaches for the teams, took their job too literally and took it upon themselves to coach other people's athetes and inplant new ideas! Good call!
Something I do find interesting in athletics is that I genuinely try to get on with people and try to do the right thing. i.e. offer advice wehn asked!.What arse me off is that I heard that the only thing a certain distasteful person could say about me when someone made a comment about my coaching ability was that one of my athletes joined their group and apparently I had said that none of my group were to speak to any one else. This of course was total rubbish but yet another like to discredit me to as many people as possible. There are far too many misogues like this in the sport and among the blazerati that exists. Needless to say that this pratt has never and will never over a long and undistiguished coaching career ever produced an athlete of note! Another coach once could not bring themselves to say or recognise me as a coach or a thrower of any note - my mere presence so offends them!!!!!
Who is supervising your thesis and through what institution (L'bro Cllaum? Gandy)
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Post by nije on Aug 30, 2007 8:09:25 GMT 1
Hey again Tom
I forgot to mention one other thing. Re Wilf working out side the system. This is an emotional point to many but I don’t actually understand what this means. As far as I know Wilf has been coaching constantly for the last god knows how many years. At the throws fest, we asked for him to be included in various conferences and national squads and it was suggested that he had been deliberately ignored but Caroline and Peter made a point to dismiss any suggestion that he had been deliberately side lined for national squads. And clarified the invitation process – the coach and athlete who were highly ranked are generally invited. I am not aware of any other situations where he has been left out of anything and have seen video of James Campbell doing some work with him at Carnegie. I haven’t been involved in the national squad recently as I have had no athletes good enough to be in it –so I wouldn’t say I had been ostracized. I know that some people stopped going for their own personal reasons and would say that Steve and Mick have been far more regular attendees’ as coaches than they were as athletes!
If anyone is to blame or you want to moan at someone then I am afraid to say that honour – and I am not having a go at Caroline F but she is the national coach! This position carries that burden and I don’t like saying that as she is a good person and doing the best she can but possibly finding that you cannot please everyone. She has been very helpful to me recently and I appreciate that but I guess if you want to go to the national squad – she is the first point of contact and if you want to deliver it – again she is the first point of contact. I am quite interested to see how these regional squads work out over the winter.
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Post by Patience on Aug 30, 2007 19:48:39 GMT 1
Has Caroline Franks changed from National Co-ordinator to National Coach? I never understood why the difference and what it actually meant.
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Post by pj on Aug 30, 2007 23:26:12 GMT 1
Wilf as far as I can recall was passed over as National Coach in favour of Frank Dick. Frank had a personal Agenda entitled 'Frank'! Frank also when approached about a suitable Javelin coach for a World Junior Champion suggested Eckhardt Arbeit! So quite naturally I have certain reservations as to what was going on in the era of Frank Dick. I would unswervingly put my faith in Wilf Paish to get any job done unstintingly in the causes of promoting Athletics. Particularly taking young athletes through to World Class status.
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Post by pj on Aug 30, 2007 23:32:06 GMT 1
Nige, Surely amongst other things a Forum is a verbal battle to get your point across. I don't think you have given a thought as to where I am coming from. I know you are a very, very good coach. You just do not need to continue telling everybody. Perhaps in your own words you 'need to listen' to others especially someone who is over 20 years older than you until next January. And yes, sometimes your Dad without whom you would definitely not be where you are today. Good luck in your new appointment. You deserve it. But do not dismiss the poor buggers hoping to get on development with no funding because without them you will have no High Performance. I could say a lot more but I am tired and I really cannot be bothered at the moment.
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Post by sam on Aug 31, 2007 0:21:48 GMT 1
so how are you lot getting on.. it's great that you all have a lot to say but let's not forget the reason why we are all here... to assist in every way we can, the development of the event and the athletes who compete within it.
keep up the good debates people!!
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Post by nije on Aug 31, 2007 1:17:46 GMT 1
Phil
There you go again. I do not continually tell eveeryone what a coach I am and I am not dimissive of anyone -I am the one making the point to not be dismissive so again you have misrepresented my point
And dare I suggest you ask brian to fight his own battles that he now seems to have with me. I thought older people would be slightly more mature than that.
YOu don't have to preach to me about funding a someone who never got any - and athletes who I have coached who suffered the same fate. And to make the point - they were very good athletes who should have received it. - oh but that is claiming what a great coach I am now isn't it. Nothing I do with anyone I coach has any impact on you so this being dismissive of
the poor buggers hoping to get on development with no funding because without them you will have no High Performance
has nothing to do with me so why say it?
BTW Frank dick thing was back in the mid 80's and with the greatest respect to wilf I am relaibly told that he wasn't invited t national squads as he didn't have ant athletes good enough to go there. Bruce longden is a well respected coach - but again has not noy rpodcued anyone of note for a long time now - and he charges for his time - my girlfried spent 2 years with him and made no progress I am sorry to say but was a bit worse off financially after numerous trips to South africa and the south of france.
That's it - I'm done - anyone wished to contact me future PM please thanks.
Time to take my bat and ball home with me!
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on Aug 31, 2007 1:24:28 GMT 1
Just got back from holiday..........glad to see everyone is getting on well! ;D
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on Aug 31, 2007 1:32:26 GMT 1
Wilf as far as I can recall was passed over as National Coach in favour of Frank Dick. Frank had a personal Agenda entitled 'Frank'! Frank also when approached about a suitable Javelin coach for a World Junior Champion suggested Eckhardt Arbeit! So quite naturally I have certain reservations as to what was going on in the era of Frank Dick. I would unswervingly put my faith in Wilf Paish to get any job done unstintingly in the causes of promoting Athletics. Particularly taking young athletes through to World Class status. Last year I went to a seminar run by Frank Dick.....as well as the head of the Czech National Multi Events Squad (sorry, forgot the name)!? The 1st words were, thanks for having me...its been around 20 years...... I have no idea about agendas or anything.....all I know is I want to learn......so, on that basis, lets not "scare" anyone else off...and remember we are here to help others......are we not?
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Post by pj on Aug 31, 2007 9:04:21 GMT 1
For someone who has had such a 'raw deal' from the Establishment you sound from your rhetoric that you are in danger of joining them. But of course you are.
Since I had my stroke last year I decided that I would put pressure on the establishment to fund the Sport better. We are so dominated by 'Performance' and paying as little as possible to the athletes and coaches that matter that we virtually ignore 'Develpoment'. As an Amateur sport we are sadly lacking in that area. We need to be Professional or indeed semi-professional in that area because the Sport will continue it's downward plunge if not. Funding is not meant to encourage an extravagant lifestyle. It is for food, travel costs refunding of lost income etc. Why you feel you need to defend top coaches against my thoughtful views on here I do not know. I have made one or two observations about one or two coaches from personal experience. I have not criticised you personally except to criticise your penchant for highlighting other athletes' faults and thereby possibly offending their coaches if they contribute to this website. I have no axe to grind with top coaches. I just believe there are nowhere near enough good coaches nationally. That is not the fault of the coaches but the fault of our archaic amateur poorly funded system. UKA and it's predecessor are RESPONSIBLE. I do not want us to continue to go down that road in the next 5 years with Beijing and London coming up.
Nigel all I can say now is sorry if anything I say about the Sport offends you but I am passionate about the whole sport as I am sure you are and have been since I went to the Rome Olympics (no, I was too young to compete). You only appear to read what you want to read because you think there is some kind of personal slur. I assure you there is not. Let your athletes do your talking. They are brilliant. You are better than some of the fast tracked coaches probably most but I don't know. I just want more. I want funding better than it has ever been. I totally disagree with John Regis. AND I am concerned now that because we have won the recent medals it will be perceived by UK Sport, the media etc that everything in the garden is lovely. Know what I mean!
Peace on you Phil
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Post by Caroline on Aug 31, 2007 9:34:15 GMT 1
Totally agree about the funding points, but think there are also wider issues. Athletics is becoming more and more centred on those already in it - if you go to any event from AAA's down, I think you will find that 99% of spectators are relatives or friends of the athletes. There are very few fans who are not ex-atheletes, relations etc... unlike the big money sports like football, rugby and cricket.
Once we can get to a position that people will happily pay for seeing a group of strangers perform, then the money will flow more towards the athletes because they will become a commodity. How many of our clubs or athletes are sponsored? Very very few I would say - to be honest, what have they to offer to sponsors? how many of our top athletes are known to the general public? And throwers get an even poorer press than the likes of Kelly Sotherton, Dean Macey and Christine O.
To put it into context.... if we had a young footballer or tennis player who had achieved what Matti has achieved this year, wouldnt the tabloids and the sponsors be hanging on to him like glue..?
UKA... a large part of your job is to sell Commodity Athletics to Jo Public. When we have kids in the playground queuing up to learn to run. jump and throw, the medals will follow.
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