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Post by wez on Aug 27, 2007 10:50:58 GMT 1
Posts made between 12 and 4am should be subject to dope testing ;D
KS, lands jav seasons best...ok not a great throw but it leaves one year to get things ingrained before Beijing. This can only be a positive thing, keep up the good work.
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Post by jeremy on Aug 27, 2007 23:47:10 GMT 1
Wez, I'm just sneaking in before my drugs test!
To be honest I find it pretty tedios that KS gets a constant slagging on our forum.
She's won a bronze medal for goodness sake.
Even if she were to go to "one of the forum's coaches, who specialises in getting girls/boys from 20 to 30 and then 40. Is this really goig to help KS and her overall Heptathlon score?
Don't know.
One thing I will say is that both KS and JE (with quite a nice technique), did seem to come in quite slowly; i.e. without fulll commitment for a damn good Spankadoolio. But then again, I'm not one to talk: a standing start from 5 steps is all I've done for the last 3 years; and quite a few of the guys/girls who come in from lane 8 are hardly accelerating at the final stages of the throw!
Why is everyone so frightened to come in off some serious pace?
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Post by jimevs on Aug 28, 2007 9:15:42 GMT 1
Jezza, I don't come in at as much pace as I'd like to as pieces fall from my knee when I do - that said, it is certainly the way to do it - nobody does i better than Slinger!
Re: the hep throwers, Ennis actually produced a decent throw of 38m off a few cross steps and no evident agression although the lack of agression may be the reason for the PB?!
You just need to look at Carolina Kluft to see how things could get better for our girls. She ran in at pace and was very committed to the throw and ended up with 48m! I'm sure Ennis will throw 40+ next season and continue to believe the main reason people talk about Sotherton's 30m throws so much is purely because she has thrown 40m so we know its there for her!
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Post by nije on Aug 28, 2007 9:39:37 GMT 1
I think you find now the best heptathletes (including DL) can throw around 50m in the jav. Ennis will get better anyway as she has a workable technique but it was interesting to note that DL said the KS only threw 40m once and was a one off. I seem to recall her throwing around 35m though. In response to Jez, I think all of us have been supportive of KS and Mike Johnson and the BBC crew were suprised about proving peolpe wrong but in fairness to KS - people, including me- thought that JE was going to beat her as she did in the european cup. If JE had a decent shot - it could have ben all different and KS did fantastically well. I think the drugs thing she talked about probably was for another day as it took a bi of shine off her performance as some time has beeen used to discuss this and to how she over hauled JE.
I think both girls did really well and should be recognised for it 10/10 for both of them as far as I am concerned and 1 house point each!!!!!!
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Post by pj on Aug 28, 2007 9:43:01 GMT 1
Do you not think it is part of the processes of their respective coaches that they are tackling it in this way. One step at a time as they say. Jess is making solid progress. Kelly has had some unlearning to do and I for one saw that there was some progress. Without pace as you say you cannot really follow through on the jav but with pace it could go all over the place without any semblance of control and would be almost like a foul in the LJ.
Nigel, you have been/sometimes are, critical of throwers. So it is hypocritical to be critical of others who wish to criticise some coaches. We DO NOT have enough top class coaches spread around the Country and those we do have are either not assisted to go around the Country regularly coaching or are not willing to do so. Some of them require the Athletes to go to them and therein lies the problem because most do not have the time nor the FUNDING to do that. Some throwers are fortunate to have top class facilities and coaches on their doorstep others and I class David in this 'box' in his first 8 seasons did not have facilities within 40 miles and apart from me, his nearest Coach was Wilf in Leeds. As I have said before some of his technical problems stem from me and my lack of technical knowledge. Wilf nor JT never travelled to Scarborough. JT travelled to York on a couple of occasions but very rarely saw David more than once a month unless he was coming north to see Mick. I think his ACL injury came from having his technique remastered but with very little back up attention being paid. At the same time we lost Calvin to England RU. The Governing body, UKA, UK Sport and Sport England should be ring fencing money for more tracks, eg: in Scarborough which has had 8 English Schools' Champions in recent years, in travel costs, paid ON TIME; in equipment, Javs cost a lot of money, but so does a lot of the other recommended equipment for strength and conditioning, in Coach Education, yes and paying Coaches to travel AND coach. Wilf has been consistently neglected by the Powers that be and he has educated more coaches than I believe anyone else in the Country has for over 45 years.
We are expecting our throwers, indeed all our athletes to be Professional, work their socks off to become World Class whilst funding themselves. Get real. We are competing against Third World Countries who do it significantly better than that. We are the 5th best economy in the World and we are spending Billions of £'s on the Olympics in less than 5 years time and we are still AMATEUR!!!!! The people who Administer the Sport are Professional so they are Alright Jack! Please can we find a Modernist who understands the Game. You, patently Nigel are one of the 'We were better in our day Band of Brothers' NO DISRESPECT! TIMES HAVE MOVED ON AND WE HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND. The really sad thing is that a Generation of athletes have already been affected by these policies. If they carry on into next year then a Generation of potential Olympians will have been ruled out. Suffice to say the next Generation, some of whom you coach will get no better treatment despite the fact that we have the Olympics. We could blood many youngsters for experience next year so that they perform well in 5 years time. I have heard the arguements about funding the wrong people and wasting money but nobody has a Crystal Ball. Not even Dave Collins. But when you broaden the base of assisting people you at least get more coming to the top. That is what Sports Development is about and probably why you have a New position.
All this progress was supposed to be funded by The National Lottery for generations. London 2012 will be a disaster for Athletics if UKA etc c/w The Government and their funding agencies do not grasp the nettle PDQ!!!!
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Post by pj on Aug 28, 2007 9:51:06 GMT 1
I think that KS was absolutely right to raise it when asked by Sonia. It was something we were all thinking as it was by the Heptathletes themselves.
Let us also remind ourselves that it was a Heptathlon and for many it was swings and roundabouts. Kelly could not have beaten Blonska even with a PB. She will improve next year and maybe Blonska will get back on the Stanozolol in order to try and beat Carolina in Beijing. Maybe we shall get the 4 year bans back which should never have been removed.
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Post by pj on Aug 28, 2007 9:54:48 GMT 1
I think you mean the best Javelin throwers in Heptathlon, Nigel. There is a subtle distinction. Kelly and Jessica are two of the best Heptathletes but their strengths lie elsewhere. Not many heptathletes can also claim to be their Country's best Hurdler and High jumper like Jessica nor Long Jumper like Kelly.
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Post by jeremy on Aug 28, 2007 11:50:33 GMT 1
I believe we do have enough javelin coaches in the country. Enough good ones.
The usual suspects are all good, I think it is more a case of coaches working together for the good of the athletes.
At our club, WSEH, Caroline does a good job with most of them, and Ashley Fox and I do a good job with the rest.
I believe that as Coaches, we should take more of a Doctor's approach. ( or meybe red cross). Yes, let's have club loyalty, but let's also look after the athletes as best we can. Certainly all the coaches mentioned here try hard and turn up regularly on club nights to help people.
I remebr in the "off season" approaching some of the coaches of neighbouting clubs (some good, some poor), but all were sceptical for a number of reasons (their own unsaid reasons).
This is a liducrous situation. TVAC had the best facilities in the area. All the coaches in the area should btring their athletes and a) there are much berrer facilities, and b) they may even learn something from the resident coaches.
This Christmas, health permitting, Wilf Paish will again come to TVAC, everyone's always welcome, hardly anyone outside the club show up! Why? Peter Yates has never said "no" when I've asked to pop down for a session at battersea on a Sunday.
Let's share what we know, and let the bext come through. Isn't that what the Finns say?
Just a thought
Jezza.
PS I jave stolen all the ideas of the best people that I know and intend to use this to provide a decent training stint over the winter months.
PPS I learned a lot when Sam Cater came down last winter, probably as much as he did. He certainly knew how to swap wine for some amazing javelins!!!!
PPS. I also learned a lot on the eve of the English schools wehn Sam, Nigel and I sat round a PC watching stuff and talking about things prior to a small chines take away when Sam and Nigel swwiped all the sweat and sour chicken doughnuts before my various eyes and then tried to take Tyson (whom we met up later) and me into a gay bar in Birmingham, following a few small bottles of Magners!
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Post by pj on Aug 28, 2007 15:19:50 GMT 1
Jezza, It is all very easy to joke about things as though everything in the garden is lovely. Have you had,(I expect you have), many philosophical discussions with Wilf? People bang on about Wilf always having a go at the Establishment. I know he is right. From his broad experience he has seen it all. It is very easy living in a huge Metropolitan area with loads of tracks, a merged club of 4 older clubs and say 'we' have enough good coaches' Come and pick them out in the wilds of Yorkshire,the largest County in the Country with only 13 tracks. Some people have to travel a round trip of 80 miles to get to one sometimes to find it is dual use and is being used by Football, Rugby League or Rugby Union. London has 23 all weather tracks and new ones on the way. Ask Peter Yates if he will come up to Leeds/Sheffield/Hull/York/ Pickrering/Malton/Beverley etc to coach. I think not, unless he is paid to do it.
Mike Mc is a fantastic Coach and yet he has never been a Jav thrower. If UKA at any time in the last 5 years could have found a Headteacher/ Deputy Head Teacher's salary to fund Mike to go around the Country or paid for Athletes to go to him he would have loved it and done a fantastic job. Now that is more interesting than running past a gay bar in Birmingham let alone drinking in one!
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Post by dobster on Aug 28, 2007 20:55:48 GMT 1
PJ - i agree with much of what you say (some nice rants by the way - from all of you). There is a clear North/South divide - but to be honest there always will be and even more so now with London 2012 - it wont get much better unless city councils jump on the Olympic training venue bandwagon!!! Some are but most are being rather slow on the uptake - Sunderland for example have launched a major improvement plan to its facilities siting a very large and impressive aquatics centre next to Sunderland Football ground - apparently a partnership relationship has been struck. No doubt other areas are progressing the same intiatives.
Regards coaches - to be brutally honest there is a distinct lack of them across the country - especially those who can coach individuals to senior success. Yep we have some aspiring coaches who have had success with school kids, which is great and well done to them, but there is a massive difference between an English Schools medal and a Senior GB vest or even in a championship team at senior level. For the latter there are probably only a small handful who I would trust or view as being competant and experienced enough to guide a good junior to good senior. Being a good senior is of paramount importance if we are to move the event forward.
Finally - as a forum what have we collectively done about it. There was talk a few weeks back about trying to get coaches and athletes together, form a club akin to the Hammer circle yet I have seen precious little of substance. I know many here have full time jobs but there appears to be plenty of hot air but very little action. I would love to take this on but with working a 12 hour day, preparing to go on a military attachment again and also trying to start my Masters thesis I am a bit pushed.
So any willing volunteers or will it be another year of provarication and fortune telling of having 10 70m throwers, 5 over 75 and at least 2 80m throwers!!
Tom
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Post by thegodfather on Aug 28, 2007 21:01:25 GMT 1
Cant agree with Jeremy that we have enough coaches We neeed them at all levels The top level of mentoring coaches is very small-People Like MM, PJ etc The next level down down say 2/3 is very scarce- I coach in south esssex as does Sam- we see each other regularly at the champs. I am not aware of many other coaches- I think a number of coaches are trying to coach all the throws which is difficult unless you are very experienced -the same problem occures in the other throws -I am aware of Martin Eckerskey and Paul Head coaching the heavy throws - There are other coaches out there but without some form of register it is diificult to know who is coaching and where. When I first started coaching at Thurrock in the eighties Thurrock had a coach for every event and often more than one coach per event Very different today This problem is reflected in most clubs - Eg .how many clubs have a specific pole vault coach In the past Thurrock had Kevin Hughes father coaching this event.
I wonder what the turnover of level one coaches having taken the course still involved one year later
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Post by dobster on Aug 28, 2007 21:01:48 GMT 1
oh and by the way - to get back to Kelly - I thought she did awesome to get a Bronze, ok crap Jav but she did enough in other events to make it easier on herself. Give it a winter with Mike and she will be throwing low 40's. There was some evident technical improvement and a solid winter should move her on.
Jessica has got a nice solid base from which to work. Bit slow and girlie but a PB nontheless. Should be a good olympics watching those two go head to head - and I sincerely hope that BBC do not use Denise Lewis to commentate again - she was crap and so full of herself.
Tom
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Post by jeremy on Aug 28, 2007 22:41:09 GMT 1
I'll elaborate on my thoughts about "having enough coaches", "philosophical chats with Wild", "North/ South" divide etc etc, in a moment. First I have to eat.
Jezza
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Post by thegodfather on Aug 28, 2007 23:06:56 GMT 1
I agree with Dobster -Denise was very negative to both girls- the BBC experts were no better I have a feeling that Kelly had been throwing much further in training- she was probably disappointed not to have thrown further but i am sure it will come
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Post by jeremy on Aug 29, 2007 0:21:02 GMT 1
I've eaten now.
1. Having enough coaches:
maybe we don't, but we do have a lot. I think the solution here is to make sure that as coaches we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. At the club level, some are good/v good, others are crap. Unfortunately the latter aren't capable of listening/improving. IMHO, the only thing worse than no coach is a crap coach. (my earlier post about having a doctor attitude may help with this short term.
I know evryone is different and needs to be treat ed differently, but the javelin requires a basic technique. It worries me sometimes how differen the thinking is from so many different coaches.
If spear was maths, how many coaches insist that their athletes know their tables?
IT IS VERY WORRYING THAT WE ONLY HAVE ONE CURRENT MALE THROWER WITH A PB OF 80+.
IT IS EVEN MORE WORRYING THAT THE "NEXT CROP SEEM A LONG WAY OFF THAT SORT OF DISTANCE"
IT IS EVEN MORE WORRYING THAT WE HAVE NO REPEATABLE PROCESS FOR A CROP OF 80+ THROWERS
It's also a littel frustrating for true jav fans like me to hear that Mike Allen (injury) and Ben Houghton, family anf fatherhood, haven'yt thrown this year, as I'm sure they would have boosted the rankings a tad. 2. North south divide. Yes, there is geography and "unexpensed mileage."
3. Wilf and his mates, who operate outside the system. Perfectly ludicrous. Yes. You couldn't make it up. That said it's worth having a littlew look at the Shot Putt set up
4. The system, ie UKA. Definitely not perfect, but let's give Warner and co a chance.
5. Big problem with point 1 above. That said, coaches should be mature enough to poll resources. When there's a group of coaches together, too many are already thinking of the next "clevr thing to say" without listening to what the previous person is saying.
6. How do you measure how good a coach is? Back to the school analogy, at my school, we had a teacher who specialised in getting people through their maths O level (crucial then for any further education). He was an expert in this. To me he was as valuable as the teachers doing the straight A's guys, who would roll up at the best universities.
7. The primary skill in any coach/educator is "people skills". The worlds best computer is a lump if ironmongery without some software.
8. Too many coaches have crap people skills, I hate it when I go to help officiate a southern League women's team match and i SEE A GIRL THROWING 40METRES with a crap technique, and then when I try to talk to the coach, talk about the "inclusive/let's share attitude of the Jav club forum, the coach clams up, thinks he knows best and I'm a poacher. I've never evr poached. Dan pembroke, Ash Bryant and Stephen Light are all examples of this. In my mind it's wow, how do we get the right guys for these people to help?
9. Those that are in the system (UKA) are too scared to make their opinions knoen because it effects their job/incom/ability to pay the mortgage.
10. We are absolutley useless at getting the potential converted into world class. Why? Just about the best emergent talent in the last year or so has been Merv. How many times has he and his coach been asked what they recquire? Are they really being brought into the thinking process? Ditto Big Mac?
11. Why have I never yet met a coach who won't give an answer when asked his/her opinion? Why isn't this knowledge sharing thing happening?
12. Where are the salient points published of every "squad session" published? Especially the Q and A?
Kelly and Jessica
Kelly won a bronse for goodness sake. Yes rope javelin. Jess looked to have a solid technique, if not much momentum.
Spoke to Roald Bradstock today. He said (and his advice was to me): get like a rubber band as best you can, get into a good position and spank it". Incidentally for him, who finds it difficult to move fast without injury, and he is 45, he works on the range of movement he needs to throw the spear, and gets very strong at it. He'd be ranked top 5 in this country.
I'm lucky in two respects; one I am able to ask a lot of people their advice (and thanks because you know who you are), second, I listen to that advice, question it so that the "advice has been communicated correctly", and then try to act on it.
My final point (as I'm hungry again) is that ther dosen't seem an abubdance of humility in the javelin community in this country. Lots of experts, not with many people skills. Hence tremendous frustration.
My final piece of advice to any thrower is:
1. continue to use this excellent forum. 2. Install "skype" so that you can chat for free, if you can't afford phone costs. Don't let geography be a burden on your ability to get a coach. 3. Pick a few roll models and chat with them. 4. Have some fun in learning the event. 5. Write down a few words such as "winter training, hip strike, closing off the middle side, watch the hand carry, lead with the chin, attack the last few strides, crossover phase". Then set fire to that piece of paper. Only write down words that mean something to you.
6. Enjoy your week's training amd make sure that javelin is only a part of it.
7. Buy a SASCO year planner from Office world (they'll know what you mean), and write in the key dates: 2 Months before: Your birthday, Christmas, Your mum's birthday, Mothering Sunday, Exam days, Course work days, AAA's entry form days, County's days, English/Welsh/Scottish Schools days/ Irish schools days, intercounties days, Club fixture list. GCSE dates, AS dates, A level dates. Jav Fest dates etc etc. Call Bevan/hollroyd/sharpe/sam/goldie before yout owwn champs. Male sure that LBA40 is there with his camera.
Prepare, prepare, prepare. If you don't have a coach now, prepare to find one. If you are a bloke moving up to 2nd year U17, get your clubmates javelin, he won't need it for 33 hyears. Learn to think for yourself. Become grown up. Develop other interests.
Wow satisfying it is to tick off a pre-planned action!!!
In a nut shell, it is you on the runway, it is you carrying the javelin , ikt is you who has to throw the thing and stop behind a white line. It is up to you to make sure thant you deliver on your hard /smart work, or live with the consequences of not preparing.
That's me done.
Jezza.
PS never ever say yes to a question unless you absolutely understand the answer. Always ask back a question to your coach. He or she will always, if any good, do the same with you.
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