Right knee in cross steps and soft step

[jimevs]

I've just been looking at the US jav discussion forum and came across something quite interesting to me.

A question was asked as follows:

After 10 years at it I am finally turning the right knee in during the cross-overs and Oh what a difference in throwing. I'm getting a lot more energy behind the spear. Why does turning the right knee in make that much difference? Thanks, Dave S from PA

To which Jeff Gorski replied:

A couple reasons that you're finding new power. By directing the right knee more into the throw direction during the crossovers you get more transfer of runup speed into the block, potentially.

You can carry more speed because your knees & feet are pointing more in the direction your run. As well, by leading more with the right knee you avoid a very common problem most throwers have: they reach for the ground or reach forward with the right foot, like this-



When the right is used like this you get a "block" from the right landing that"stands" you up early and starts to open the left side too soon. A right knee action/carry like this-



is just the way to go.

The other aspect that you're feeling is that, from this knee position it's very easy to just roll over the right foot with that same knee bend/position and slide right into your block and off goes your spear.



Basically, you're smoothly getting more runup energy into your block because of this knee direction and action..... good for you!

This makes a lot of sense to me, would also help those people who tend to land with their foot pointing to the side of the runway instead of slightly forwards. In particular, I thought the first picture of Zimmerman was interesting. Even though his toes are aiming forwards and potentially looking to land facing the right way, the knee position means that he is reaching for the ground which would make more difficult to work the right foot/knee/hip etc.

[slinger]

yeah jim it does make perfect sense and as i've said squillions of times on here, i feel that the position you land at final right foot contact is massive in how well the right hip 'strikes' and allows momentum to carry on into the left side block.

the problem is with these pictures especially the one you are interested in of zimmerman is that it is just a picture - a single moment in time, now what many top throwers do, especially ones that could be classed as 'rotational' throwers is during the impluse stride [the zimmerman and obergfoll pic is mid way through the flight phase of the impulse stride] the right foot and leg actually turn so go from toes pointing at right angles at moment of take off for impulse stride to actually turning mid flight of the impulse stride to the moment of contact being right toes pointing at 2 o clock or so [with the right knee directly over the toes] - zelezny did this very well, as does thorkildsen now.

the problem with being like obergfoll in her picture here is that if the right knee and foot are pointing too much at the direction of throw you risk opening the hips too much and as a result you'll lose some of the bodies torque and you will be on top of the throw too soon - it's a fine line really and maybe it's a reason why obergfoll is so erratic, she's about as open at the hips are anyone i can think of during her X overs and impulse through to her delivery.

but yes, imo for me it is just what jeff says regarding - "The other aspect that you're feeling is that, from this knee position it's very easy to just roll over the right foot with that same knee bend/position and slide right into your block and off goes your spear." and not a forceful voluntary drive or "strike" of the lower right side.

[slinger]

here's a pretty good example of seeing zelezny's right foot and leg during impulse and delivery.

note - at impluse stride take off, left hip pointing direction of throw and the right foot and knee pointing at right angles to the throw ie 3 o clock if straight on is 12 and behind 6. Also note that the right foot once grounded is allowed to continue to turn even after grounding - no pause moments, one of zelezny's greatest skills was allowing a great amount of momentum to transfer into his block this was because of a very passive lower right side. Now if jan was something like oberfoll above ie hips relatively front on he wouldn't be able to obtain the rotational qualities he desired, nor would he create as much torque or range.

[ironbrew]

This link (sorry for the length of it) should take you to a series of photos of Tero that clearly illustrate what slinger is saying
<table style="width:194px;"><tr><td align="center" style="height:194px;background:url(http://picasaweb.google.com/f/img/transparent_album_background.gif) no-repeat left"><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/ironbrew80/TeroP"><img src="http://lh5.google.com/ironbrew80/R2mMaOkUPmE/AAAAAAAAAUk/CVMesKaI4h0/s160-c/TeroP.jpg" width="160" height="160" style="margin:1px 0 0 4px;"></a></td></tr><tr><td style="text-align:center;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/ironbrew80/TeroP" style="color:#4D4D4D;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none;">Tero P</a></td></tr></table>

[slinger]

thanks mike!

tero pitkamaki, same thing. You'll find all top throwers achieve similar things.

[slinger]

another good set of pics from mike, thanks again!

another good illustration, this time sergey makarov.


above - makarov is very much a rotational style thrower as is pitkamaki above, see the right foot and knee pointing directly toward camera shot ie both hips and shoulder axis shut off to the direction of throw.

above you can see right foot and knee have turned during the impulse stride whilst mid flight, the right knee and foot will continue to turn through out the remaining stills through to after release.







the result is that makarov is able to allow momentum to carry from final right foot contact to final left foot contact for the bracing block, which i also will note is an excellent example in this throw, the left hip has very little forward movement from left foot contact to release, yet the right hip covers a great deal of forward distance.

also lastly a quick word on the finish - that's a proper finish! throwing hand fully turned out little finger upper most.

thank you again mike for the stills!

[slinger]

the above two throwers are classed as throwing with a rotational style, rotational is a very loose term imo as most people do not line the javelin up exactly straight, but to illustrate a more linear style would be to highlight an athlete like steve backley or aki parviainen.

on this you tube clip you can pause it and look exactly what backley does for example, around 1.00mins backley is throwing from a side on camera angle and at moment of take off you can see backley's right foot and knee is actually pointing toward the direction of throw slightly, but he's very aware at this stage not to prematurely open his hips to the direction of the throw at this stage, once again the main key for me is that the right foot continues to turn after ground contact all the way through to post release, this not only gets you to sequence the throw correctly, but also gets you very quickly into your left leg plant, so essentially you are losing little run up momentum.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_oA5p5d25I

[sam]

oh i get it now.... that is what i have been doing wrong all this time....

[slinger]

any improvements sam?