|
Post by nije on Oct 5, 2009 17:51:41 GMT 1
PS
I mentioned David and emeka as an example of how lottery funding was mismanaged and how the athletes were not really looked effectively and not meant as any personal slur if that is what you were getting at. I say this whilst waiting to see if any of my athletes will get funding this year and if it is actually worth anything!
|
|
|
Post by Mack on Oct 5, 2009 18:26:56 GMT 1
To get things back on track......
What can we do....
I'm sorry, I'm not in a position to organise/set up any thing, but I would possibly be interested in attending something set up in around my area. I think Lea Valley is closest indoor with facilities.
People will ask themselves one question when thinking about attending one of these sessions.
What would I get out of it?
This would be different for each of us.... and is something we may need to answer to get more buy in.
It's not good the athletes/coaches need to run what UKA/England athletics should. I've done it for most of the time I've been doing athletics. I've had very little help from the powers that be but this shouldn't be the case, for anyone.
Neil
P.S. We need to take note what has happened before (within the sport). What funding was given to which event and how this was used so mistakes that happen time and time again don't this time. Although knowing what mistakes have been made have not stopped then making them again.
|
|
|
Post by Caroline on Oct 5, 2009 19:40:52 GMT 1
Caroline's point about the Eton match - that is how it has always been. It is false economy really, friday night LInford christie gets $50K for running against the worlds best, saturday he gets his expenses for rungin in a BAL maatch for TVH in Battersea - and nobody came to see him! As andy Normal used to say - you couldn't fill a telephone box. Dont blame the messenger - I don't make the rules, this is just how it has always been. I like athletics but I woudn't go to a meeting like that unless I had somedoby in it - and if I remember I did and I didn't for once! Regarding marketing, the event is highlighted when we have someone in it. Backley made javelin popular, as did edwards in the TJ. The thing is you need someone winning medals to hang your hat on. Again nothing we can do apart form get people throwing 65/85m. I agree more field events should be shown but they haven't done that for the 30 or years I've been watching! . I think you have misunderstood what marketing is all about. It is not about preaching to the converted. You might not want to go to a meeting unless you had an athlete in it, but with respect you are not a target audience to whom we should be marketing the event. Marketing is about selling to people who don't know (yet) they want the product. What we should be doing is trying to broaden the audiences - how many people watch athletics during the Olympics? and following on from that... how many watch it when the Olympics are not on? the difference in the 2 numbers are who we should be marketing to. The 'that is how it has always been' is both narrow-minded and unhelpful. The sport needs to change, and people who are not prepared to change with it will end up being left behind, as with all sucessful businesses. Unlike many people here, I came to athletics quite late, only through Rosie competing. However, I had no idea previously that I could go and watch a match or competition locally where athletes of national level would compete. When my children were small we were always on the lookout for new places to visit. Athletics should be a family event, there is something to watch and when it's a nice day you can't beat it. You only have to look how other sports have become much more popular through clever marketing, cricket being one, and snooker another. That is how we will bring in funding and sponsorship, and the television audiences will follow.
|
|
|
Post by pj on Oct 5, 2009 20:30:37 GMT 1
Hi Nigel,
You are in a much better and more exalted position in the hierarchy of Athletics in the UK than I am. I have only been a Coach and no better than a County Athlete. I admire what you and other Coaches do and have done. I have not criticised that level of the Sport but there does seem to be an undertone of resignation in all this instead of doing something about really trying to make a difference like Jeremy has done.
There have been murmurings in the Press but I haven't seen a swelling of indignation by our ex-80 metre throwers, just mutterings about how the next generation aren't good enough. Steve's rhetoric about the present state of affairs when he has been commentating has been quite dismissive. Does he and you and Mick or anyone have the answers? I think not. It is highly unlikely that I will either. But I have been present when many things have gone wrong. I guess similar things happen in Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden etc. We produce as many decent young athletes as they do but we lose a much higher percentage. In raising these points over and over again I would hope that the new incumbents at the top of the organisation of our favourite Sport would do something about putting it 'back on track'. No pun intended.
What you are doing and the proposals many of you are making, to my mind, is no different to previous proposals when funding was available. Good luck to all of you. I know you will get David's support and you will have mine but please don't knock me for wanting things to get better. I think there are people coming into the Sport who, given the correct funding, could put us back on the map.
However the Countdown to the Greatest Show on Earth, on our doorsteps, started ticking four years ago.
Rio De Janeiro's has started ticking now.
I suspect that their Athletics is in a far healthier state than ours. Are we going to miss a trick here? As somebody said (Tom?) earlier in this thread. We might only have Goldie throwing at our own Olympics. There are 24 possible throws places. On recent selection criteria and form we might have three there. Unless we have the right coaches, very well funded, able to give 100% of their time to the top throwers we probably won't have any more than that. If we had say 50%, then and only then, the Country and it's Athletics Funders and Governors can be proud of what they have done. If in filling most of those available spaces...well, the knock on effect for our next group of youngsters would be exhilarating.
However until somebody with clout raises hell about the whole state of throwing in general and Javelin in particular will anyone take notice?........ I think not because there will nearly always be the odd medal from Relays, maybe a Sprinter or an American/ English 400m runner or a Jamaican /English Jumper or a Somalian /English distance runner or an unfunded Hurdler.
When results are needed and top jobs are on the line we will go looking for people to succeed at the highest level. When a long term strategy is required we give it a few years and then shut it down. That strategy has actually worked for GB Juniors but it has not been persevered with for the Seniors in recent times.
|
|
|
Post by nije on Oct 6, 2009 14:04:06 GMT 1
HI Phil
I think we are agreeing mate or are not that far away. If we do look back - when we had the dasy of mick steve and co back in the late 80's max jones was in charge adn we had national throws squad with all 4 throws together and that worked for us javlin thorwers but our discus was poor, as was our shot and our hammer wasn't much better. Our heavy throws have not progressed for years with someone coming through and then faltering. When was the last shot putter (barring carl) selected for a major outdoor champs( Mark P who then threw 17m as did paul edwards before him). We have been poor for someyears and our jav has kept us interested!
Steve's quote on TV/radio was unfortunte as he probably does not see what some others of us see but we must make sure we look after our good athletes. I mentioned before that when I for exampel left one area - non of the athletes I left progressed and most are out of the sport - we have to ask ourselves how was that allowed to happen. We get kid down to clubs but then some clubs or events do not provide an adequate service.
One of my squad went home for the summer and got another PB almost immediately but then regressed over the summer even though she was seeing a couple of coaches bascially everyday but what was lacking was the volume and intensity that she got here and came back very much out of shape, weak and technically very much how they used to look. This is an example of the advantages they have in a controlled environment with a groups aroud them and time frame they are used to whilst doing the full range of training and not just throwing.
Also Phil you flatter me with your perception of my role with UKA. I have never been selected (or asked) to go to any major championships with any of my athletes over the last 10 years repeated by AAW as well I might add who don't select me either as a team manager. Hence my exalted position within uka hierachy is that I was asked to be a jav lead by the powers tha be - Caroline franks and a little by default by John T because I think someone else turned it down! I can assure you no have no sway with UKA and if anything have been in a situation where they have been trying to acquire a couple of my athletes - who I might add are free to go when ever they want. IF they dont want me to coach them, then, I don't want to coach them!
Caroline, I think i made my point in the second line re linford being worth nothing at a national league match and nobody came to see him but they diid the previous day at a prestigious meet. I think the city games was an attempt to do a 20/20 cricket sort of thing so some efforts are being made bu UKA to their credit - but against that is that is may have an adverse effect on the BAL UKWAL.
As far as me having the answers, well what i have done is try and coach two particular athletes at university who in one case I had to part company as they didn't turn up for training and basically went AWOL having shown some progress. Maybe they may see the light and try again but alot of my time was wasted. The other athlete I watched throw their talent away and seemingly could not handle simple things like competiting. If you don't enjoy it don;t do it obviously the pressure was to much for them. However, I have been more succesful in the other throwing events and they take up my time at present.
Mike Holmes was a discus/throws coach and ended up coaching a 2.38 high jumper called steve smith!
In terms of progress at the younger age groups - the juniors and u23 europeans saw our biggest haul ever - so something went right there form the old system with dave Collins who I thought was getting the structure right but that has changed again so we will see how this pans out.
|
|
|
Post by Caroline on Oct 6, 2009 15:21:56 GMT 1
Unfortunately Nigel, I'm not sure you understand what I mean by marketing. I am talking about it in terms of how it is used in business terms, as in large national and multi-national companies. I have seen no evidence that there is any structured marketing plan that is working for UK athletics.
There should be formulated and targeted specifics with matrices connected to them to work out whether what has been done has worked - an easy exercise for something as high profile as sport. I agree that the Super 8 was an attempt at moving the sport into a higher profile, but imho it should have been done somewhere more central than Cardiff - Crystal Palace springs to mind.
It is pointless looking at what happened previously and saying it didnt work, or 'well that was rubbish'. We need to use failure as a guide of what not to do to produce success. This is how successful businesses work, and that may be a lot of our problems in athletics.... athletes do not necessarily make good business people.
A small example might be.. splash in local paper for BAL match... X, Y and Z are coming to compete, all were at Beijing. Tickets for the event are "only" £3 each and £5 for a family ticket. Now... those who attend BAL matches normally will be 'huh i'm not paying for that,' as per your comment, but Mr and Mrs Jo Bloggs with a couple of children might think 'what a bargain, a day out in the fresh air for all of us. All very healthy... blah blah'.
If they enjoyed it, they will go again, and maybe the young Bloggs will join the local club...? However, records can be kept and statistics formulated to see if the marketing has worked...
I'm not knocking UKA btw even if it seems like it.. I just think they are going about this aspect of their business in the wrong way!
Now I seem to have totally highjacked Neil's thread, and I'm very sorry!!
|
|
|
Post by districtus on Oct 6, 2009 15:50:09 GMT 1
Hi Guys/Gals
Time is indeed moving on, and in no time at all the winter will be over and the new season will be upon us.
I have spoke to Tom, and indeed Caroline Franks and Ken Holmes in the past, about the possibilty of some sort of get together across the UK. Tom of course ran one last winter, and I believe we have the possibility of running some more with other coaches (and Athletes)! I have mentioned this before, but we must get the athletes together, as without them we are nothing. I want to learn and continue to learn and I believe we cant do that without the best athletes there, together, banter, being part of something...
What I do know, is no one truly knows what is happening with funding, be it regional, national or otherwise, and we know what we SHOULD have there to support us, but we havent got an ideal situation, whatever that may be. I had a meeting with Charles a couple of hours before Jeremy and all I can say is that we "did" have a Javelin lead 2 days before my meeting, but "they" pulled out, which is why it is being advertised. It was to be announced alongside Fuzz (high jump) and Tony (Multi), so Charles was just as frustrated as all of us now that its not in place. Until this appointment is made, we cant possibly know what structure is going to happen for the coming months.
So, to that end, I am happy to put my hat into the ring to help put something on at Milton Keynes and or the new track at Stowe School. I am sure people would take something from it, and the more of these that we can put on can only help all of us.
Chris
|
|
|
Post by benn on Oct 6, 2009 19:07:27 GMT 1
One of my squad went home for the summer and got another PB almost immediately but then regressed over the summer even though she was seeing a couple of coaches bascially everyday but what was lacking was the volume and intensity that she got here and came back very much out of shape, weak and technically very much how they used to look. Hi nije the athlete you refer to was seen no more than half a dozen time over the summer despite being asked when she was coming down to train.Cant see how being coached by a coach with an athlete who is ranked higher and throws further regularly could have such a detrimental effect over such a short period of time that she was seen by that coach.
|
|
|
Post by nije on Oct 6, 2009 19:52:36 GMT 1
HI Benn
My point was not at the coaches but the fact that as an individual they decided to see I think 3 or 4 coaches for technical work and then stopped doing the donkey work i.e the volume and intensity stuff hence became detrained. The other aspect was that she was getting difffernt advice and trying to desseminate what they could and it ended up confusing them and the result was not really achieveing anything that anyone was telling them. They took the easy optoin ie. throw lots and not do the donkey work and reaped what they sewed as by the end of the season they were well down.
I dont quite understand the last bit but I assume you mean going to york. In fairness I think that coach was doing the saem technical stuff as me as he called me about it and I think he and the others were presiding over an athlete who was basically just throwing every day after coming off a quite high intensive and volumous training regime and is now paying for it!!!!!!!
she's a good lass and I am sure she'll be upto 14m if she dedicates herself more this year. Shebthrewe 13.50 in training so her 12.70ish was a little dissappointing and she should be over 40m in the disc as well which wont set the world on fire but is decent throwing for a youngster and college athlete. I don't know about the rest of you coaches but I find that many athletes don't believe in themsleves. I remember telling Freya that she should throw 50m this year and she nearly did inspite ofa few technical failings but I can see how good she is -and hopefully she and others can. Brett was the same he'd throw over 60m warming up, 62 training throws measured and he'd settle for 55m now and then not that I'd tell him this and he doesn't read this!!!! HE threw 58's easy before the U23 qual and threw 54 and came 13th DNQ! I find that hard to comprehend as a thrower who has been in that situation as confidence wasn't a problem but many of our athletes are quick to make excuses and do revel in that environmetn where people like backley hill etc is where they really bring their a game! Cheers mate
|
|
|
Post by benn on Oct 6, 2009 20:29:53 GMT 1
hi nije Tis ok was just pointing out the amount of coaching she actually had from the coach who passed her onto you during her stay at home this summer.No reference was meant to her trips to york as i wouldn't want to as not being there when she trained.Maybe a call to her previous coach may help with any queries you may have on how it went over summer .I am sure he would love to hear from you anyhow
Agree about your view on athletes and i myself believe a fair amount is down to the athletes psychological profile.
|
|
ltad
Ivanov
Posts: 9
|
Post by ltad on Oct 7, 2009 0:12:02 GMT 1
Well done Caroline! I whole-heartedly support your views on marketing the event. As a mother myself athletics is a great sport for the whole family and if we were able to encourage more into the sport then subsidised tickets to major events would be a definite plus! Goldie has done a lot to encourage very young children to take up the javelin, which is to be applauded but we need to think of what our junior/seniors are to aspire to and what we will be doing to encourage them to perform better in the future. I appreciate that there are members out there who have a lot of experience of what has happened in the past and what has also gone wrong in the past which also needs to be changed for the future but we cannot move forward unless we determine what structure will be in place and what funding will be available to our athletes. The coaches also need to be receptive to change – we need to look at things differently if we are to move forward, not be narrow-minded . I apologise if I am being derogatory to the coaching community out there - this isn't my intention - and my son's coach is absolutely terrific - but I just feel that all of your combined expertise would make a significant difference and we should work together to achieve an ultimate goal of promoting the javelin event! which is needed.
|
|
ltad
Ivanov
Posts: 9
|
Post by ltad on Oct 7, 2009 0:13:21 GMT 1
Well done Caroline! I whole-heartedly support your views on marketing the event. As a mother myself athletics is a great sport for the whole family and if we were able to encourage more into the sport then subsidised tickets to major events would be a definite plus! Goldie has done a lot to encourage very young children to take up the javelin, which is to be applauded but we need to think of what our junior/seniors are to aspire to and what we will do to encourage them to perform better in the future. I appreciate that there are members out there who have a lot of experience of what has happened in the past and what has also gone wrong in the past which also needs to be changed for the future but we cannot move forward unless we determine what structure will be in place and what funding will be available to our athletes. The coaches also need to be receptive to change – we need to look at things differently if we are to move forward .
|
|
|
Post by Caroline on Oct 7, 2009 8:12:41 GMT 1
Thanks ltad. I do think that very often we become 'athletics-centred' and forget that we have experience and skills that transfer across.
In most business recruitment, emphasis is placed on the immediate skills of that role, rather than previous experience in the industry, and for some reason I think that focus is reversed in athletics. So, for example, if a software company were looking for an administrator, they would look for administrative skills as a priority, rather than software experience. I have seen some good athletes in administrative roles that they were totally unsuitable for.... I wonder whether UKA's marketing department is similar? Because, that's the whole point about marketing and advertising - you have to think outside the box!
Who would have thought that a successful advert for chocolate would centre around a gorilla playing Phil Collins...??
|
|
|
Post by nije on Oct 8, 2009 9:55:55 GMT 1
HI Caroline
There is nothing unfortunate about my understanding of what you are saying with respect, I think the unfortunate thing is that you don't really know hwat has gone on before as you admit you are a relative newcomer.
The Cardiff super 8 was a test as cardiff were the only ones prepared to try it. Eve now, next year Inthink you will find that there will be three but non will be london venues as they have not nought into it and believe you me, uka/S pickering has been full court pressing to get their signiture. Sean know s a bit a bot marketing having worked for cannon F1 among others ini marketing so I'd trust him with that
The national league has tried many thigns over the last 20 years includnig mixed matches, joint mathes, limited timetables and grand prix format and still people do not come to watch. However, I am sure UKA and the powers that be will be only too pleased to hear what you hav in mind as so far little has worked in making a domestic meeting a viable income generator. I think Rosie has picked up some cash from the throws fest and cardiff super 8 which is a start as most of the athltes there, this was probably thier first ever pay day.
Ground receipts by the way did not cover the £75k budget and the tv covergage was paid for by the event! Did you know most sports and athlteics metings, the tv coverage is paid for and not vice versa as happens in football? Hence it is very expensive to run meets and with small rewards as was the case with the super 8 it copsts 75-100k to run. This is why they were trying to get the local councils involved as private sposnros do not usually pay for such things, especially now with the credit crunch.
However, I hope you can think of something as nothing has really been successful apart form the c palce GP meet. The sad thing is that the programme - the games wiht celebrity guests oding various events gets a wider audiance thanthe real thing and the charity football matches at Newcastle where they have celebs verse the veterans is a 70,000 sell out. We cannotdo that in this sport and neihter can netball, hockey, even the guiness cup final rugby cannot fill twickenham! And don't ge tme startedon county cricket - 1 man and his dog 3 day games !
But your efforts to find something are to be commended and supported by us all. Keep up the good work!
|
|
|
Post by pj on Oct 8, 2009 10:19:16 GMT 1
Nije said
" And don't get me started on county cricket - 1 man and his dog 3 day games"
I think it has been 4 days for about 10 years now. And I would be the one man but I have two dogs. Perhaps you were thinking about Baseball, which is shorter and infinitely more boring.
|
|