25 athletes and their coaches for 2012

[dobster]

So in the spirit of detente that seems to have permeated a few - what do we think of the above titled statement that CVC has stated?

What can we do and what should we do?

Should our next lever be into Engalnd Athletics to appoint a javelin lead? I have a feeling that a UKA Jav event lead could be some time off.

Do we run our National Squad sessions?

Some starters for 10 that I hope will spark some healthy debate and some fresh ideas. Please contribute as you see fit and keep all responses respectful - there are no bad ideas

Tom

[Mack]

25 for 2012 seem's very short sighted.

I'm not sure why we don't take a full compliment to every major championships... those who reach the mark and those who are developing and need experience at world's, OG etc. If you say ££££, well for 2012 you can't get much closer and I'm sure most, if not all of athletes would pay for their travel to get there. (We do for most national events)

Imagine, that 3rd place selected athlete who makes the final and gets within cm/sec's of a medal. The more people we send, the more chance we have and the more the homes fans will have to support.

Javelin Lead
We need someone to lead the javelin nationally, England, UKA, I know who I would appoint and and believe they have ALL the skills (technical, communication and people management)(this would be another thread)

We should take some of the money from the relays and put it towards other events (javelin). (Maybe we can start a javelin relay, 4 throwers, highest combined distance with out dropping the javelin)

Regarding national squads...
Would that be for the coaches or the athletes.... from what I heard, your sessions last year in Sheffield came off very well. Again something organised by those doing the sport and not by those running it.

I think we need coaches for the sport to develop. BUT for 2012 (I have already said this) we already have the athletes who could medal, we need to work on them from now to then.

Thanks,

Neil

[nije]

HI Tom

That is what CVC remit is or has become! As i said in a previous thread, my understanding is that they have been loking for a jav lead and as Jeremy feed back - that will probably be advertised (again).

The mentors job for all field events are yet to be filled for England as far as I know.

My opinion is that we should set up our own regions - and work from there. I know someone has money to do stuff in the london region and I will be involved in that. We will hopefully do something in Wales and I woudl like to extend that to the South adn SOuth west.

I think that the northern lot who used to go to sheffield together should put a proposla to England for funding and have squads over a few places over the winter for all throws so everyone can be reached and soemone would be required to admin it and the coaches cuold all pull together. From what i see you have Mick, you tom, slinger, brian P, Paul Wilson, Shelley, to name but a few who could invite throwers and other coaches along and all uka/eng have to do is throw a little bit of cash at it.

I'm keen to work with the likes of ken/caroline/george an co from the south west adn woudln't mind working with the london area and east and maybe mike mac, robbo, tim N, Pete Fielding and co could work out of bedford and the london coaches get toether at lee vally or eaton.

My feeling is that the regional development managers woudl welcome suggestions adn provide some finance if it looked good as it basically what some of them were required to do.

I've said before, the national squads , should be national and move around the country to reach as many people as possible. e.g. one at lee valley that the northerners don't have to come to - one at eaton, Cardiff, loughborough/birmingham, manchester, sheffield, newcastle, bath adn in that case, all have indoor facilities, and all are in reach of most coaches and athletes. I also think they should share a similar thread, one of coach and athlete education and also test and measure progress and ensure that all athletes are doing specific training.

I do think we should have a seperate throws coaches alliance of some sort which the NGB's can dove tail into , a little like the throws fest where they have build on another idea/rather tha hijacking it and supporting an already set up body tha may need tweaking but has already demonstrated best practice and inclusion on a large scale. I don't think we should be looking to exclusively, but try and draw people in.

That's what I would like to see. I could just as well carrying on with what I am doing as I have it great here, but I would rather we all were singing from the same hymn sheet and benefitting from each others experiences.

In spite of some of the things said about me recently, I have no axe to grind and can work with anyone. I'm extremely happy with what we have here and have nothing to really complain about, but I would rather see us all working together and get over our own ego's and see if we can pull in the same direction. However, if some people can't work together - the regional aspect should overcome that hurdle as well.

[nije]

Not that i AM LOOKING TO CRITICISE WHAt Mac has siad, but I don't think we are in a position to change policy i.e. talk about moving money away from sprints and sending a full compliment to games is of course something we want, but, unfortunately, that just isn't going to happen ;and they sent as many throwers with qualifying distances this year as they could when some were critical of sending out of form throwers.

Criticising what has gone before and current policy doesn't take us further as nobody is going to change what has been put in place by CVC/DE Vos so we need to look how we can work out something for ourselves and then see if UKA Eng will support it.

[Mack]

May be I should have put a "Ha ha" or LOL after the relay comment.... really

[Caroline]

Personally, I love your idea of a javelin relay...

[ltad]

Hi Neil - you have a very valid point – why have funding for relays? We have, in the past, an illustrious presence in the javelin world. Why can’t we have this again? There are many talented throwers out there who, with extra help and encouragement, can make it. I am disappointed that the media do not rate javelin in their coverage. How many times do you watch athletics and only see one thow? Another gripe of mine is with funding. It does cost a lot to travel to events, equipment, training etc and I was gutted when my local authority refused to support my son because he isn’t 14 yet but the funding, if available would have been there for him next year when he is 14 and potentially until 2012. When I receive emails from sports people in Finland, who obviously take javelin seriously, stating that what my son has achieved this year is “amazing” it is encouraging but also fills me with a sense of sadness that he probably will not stay in the sport. He has been very lucky to be selected for the U14 Leicester Tigers rugby academy and they subsidise almost everything – it is a very different ball game – sorry for the pun, but joking aside, if UK Athletics want to encourage participation then they need to sort out a javelin head and funding/support for athletes with potential asap. Perhaps we need to look at ways of marketing the javelin event too. Any suggestions?

[Caroline]

Unfortunately the marketing for athletics as a whole is abysmal, so javelin tends to come very much as a runner up in the PR money stakes. For example, in 2008, after a lot of dithering they held the UK Challenge Final at Eton. Now, in theory, that should have some of our very best athletes in the country attending, and so it did.

However, there was no publicity at all to 'Jo Public', not even in any of the local rags. It was free to go in (why?? are our athletes worth so little??), but I would ask if the Powers that Be think that our sport is so unattractive that nobody would bother to come, so why would they bother to publicise it to those who don't read Athletics Weekly or peruse these forums?

Unfortunately, until we make athletics appealing for people who are merely spectators to come and watch, the sport will continue to have little money in it.

Sad, eh?

[dobster]

Neil - I think you make some valid points regards funding issues, alas I dont think we will ever resolve them.

Regards the subject, and playing devils advocate here - is it short sighted? From what I understand, in order for a sport to gaurantee funding from via UK Sport (via DCMS) then that sport needs to demonstrate an ability to win medals. So basically medals gets funding - so is CVC trying to focus his effort to obtain future funding by edging his bets on medals at the Olympics in 2012 - maybe then there will be some headroom to develop the sport - unsure on that train of thought but it may be a reason??

Now as for the event, I personally dont think we have that many medal chances come 2012 - Goldie may actually be our only realistic hope. Accepted that we have some talented throwers but is 2012 an Olympics too close? Maybe this is one particular reason why the event is not a focus right now? Worth a thought anyway. However, getting a few more throwers there is a very realistic goal; certainly on the mens side, perhaps less so on the female side due to the distance deficit to make up (5m as opposed to 10m).

ltad & Caroline - I think you hit on some very valid points here. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of athletes we are not a professional sport so we do not attract that type of finance that Rugby does. Furthermore, I do not think that our sport lends itself too well for robust club support, like rugby or football does with its academy set up.

Regionalised Organisation - I agree this is a course of action worth pursuing, certainly for this year at the very least as I do not think there will be too much NGB support for the event. A common basic structure for each region to follow may be a good start, focusing on some key technical and physical development areas that our throwers need to work on. So who wants to take it on - Nije has already staked Wales and SW; Sam you have already started a London thing (which I am happy to help out with as I now live in London) - volunteers for East, North West etc??

Warm Weather Trg - do we want to organise a group to go WWT in 2010?? Any value or benefit that you can see with this? Perhaps a location in Europe?

Tom

[nije]

Tom's question is about what we can do as I read it. I think some of the suggestions - or in some cases are gripes, are valid, but there is little we can do about it. What we can focus on is what we cna do and not what the NGB should do for funding as there is little we can do to chnage that apart from throw 85/65m! Caroline's point about the Eton match - that is how it has always been. It is false economy really, friday night LInford christie gets $50K for running against the worlds best, saturday he gets his expenses for rungin in a BAL maatch for TVH in Battersea - and nobody came to see him! As andy Normal used to say - you couldn't fill a telephone box. Dont blame the messenger - I don't make the rules, this is just how it has always been. I like athletics but I woudn't go to a meeting like that unless I had somedoby in it - and if I remember I did and I didn't for once!

Regarding marketing, the event is highlighted when we have someone in it. Backley made javelin popular, as did edwards in the TJ. The thing is you need someone winning medals to hang your hat on. Again nothing we can do apart form get people throwing 65/85m. I agree more field events should be shown but they haven't done that for the 30 or years I've been watching!

As I said previously, this should be about what we can do in our local area and then how we can maybe bring it into a national context. Im surprised that such thoughts have yet to be conveyed barring Tom and myself.

We need to look at what we can do not what hasn't happended before and what the NGB should do as we have no control over that.

[pj]

The crux of the matter is that successive Governing Bodies at the elite end, BAF, UKA etc. accompanied by the mass media have overseen the demise of the Throws in this Country whilst doing damn all about it in a forward thinking constructive manner. It doesnt require a Soothsayer to work out that the whole Sport can go down the plug hole with that philosophy. Middle distance for men has been in the doldrums for some time since 'The Golden Decade' . The reliance on hoping that one or two potential medalists can pull us out of trouble WILL not work because everyone is only one career threatening injury away from losing Funding and probably early retirement. Who becomes the Podium Potential then? Certainly not the Throwers because the Elite, Running Orientated Fraternity don't care.

[sam]

Oct 4, 2009 16:08:39 GMT 1 nije said:

My opinion is that we should set up our own regions - and work from there. I know someone has money to do stuff in the london region and I will be involved in that.

what's that then nigel.. since the kike/UKSG incident i have heard nothing from my "boss" Rob Thickpenny regarding anything going on in london. Think maybe I rattled some cages amongst the more established people and find myself blacklisted now..

would just like to know as I have been the lead in London for 3 years

[nije]

Sorry Sam I missed your name - I delete some of the text and the bit about you carrying on the ggod work you were doing in london. Mal Wallace has funds toset up workshops etc which was what we talked about in the prince of wales pub that toime in cardifff with ken adn Chris.

Not sure about the kiki thing you were talking about - news to me =-didn't stop you being in the national squad coaches pool though.

And Phil, I do not doubt that your points are valid but I thought the idea was to think of things we could do adn not necessarily gripe about what has gone before or the hardships that some may haev felt under the current NGB.

You are quite aggrieved but TBH adn this is not to disrepect youre son david, but he is about the best example of someone who ahs benefitted the most out of lottery as he was funded to the max after his junior years and had from what i have been told everything at his diposal as did Emeka who was in a similar poistion and at a great institution. Few of us got anything out the sport like that, it just appear that this suport was not utilised as effectively as possible for one reason or another. I trained with a lottery funded person (well a few) and they just got money every month and that was about it which I didn't think was a very effective method. ANyway that is off the point somewhat.

Also I have cliamed the SW and Wales - just suggested that we work together!

Until a national person is put in place I think we have to organise ourselves into an independent throwing body and work as regions and correspond to the national level and approach the ngb/eng/scot/wales/ireland to see if they want to buy in to an already formed and functioning organisation.

If some people don't like it then fine but I am encourage by the likes of TOm who have expressed an interest in getting involved now it apppears he has the time and doesn't have to cower under his desk in the green zone!!!!! Not to say that you wont have anything lobbed at you in london zone mate.

[pj]

Well Nigel I have to say you are incorrect in your surmise. However I am not dwelling in the past. Someone has to stand up and be heard, not kowtow to the current situation and accept the status quo. What you are suggesting smacks of 'more of the same'. David's situation has nothing to do with it and I hasten to add I did not mention it. I point out that what might seem to be a positive move for 25 chosen ( subjectively ?) and their Coaches is a policy potentially leading to the complete demise of the Sport. I hope it turns out not to be.

[nije]

Seems like I am repeating myself but Tom in the first thread wrote

What can we do and what should we do?

I and others have tried to be constructive and suggest something as TOm requested for this thread. YOur gripes are valid but I don;t think it is part of this debate.

Requrgitating the same anti uka rhetoric is not a solution and there is no benefit in suggesting that i am kowtowing along to any theme. I have no UKA/Eng ath and TBH AAW alliances or instructions as I don't work for them so I have no aganda here. CVC has stated his his remit - I don't think it is a particularly good idea for the long term of the sport but from what i understand - that is not his remit and you are I debating it is an exercise in futility because there is nothing we can do about it.

I'm sorry you don't like what I suggested, I.e. doing it for ourselves - pity you couldn't come up with something. I was hoping this would be a positive thread but there you go! Maybe a little honesty about the athletes would be a more accurate summary why javelin throwing has been so poor since the retirement of Mick and Steve - the only men who made major games finals and medalled over the past 20 years. Maybe we were just spoilt! However, I would like to see us come up with a structure to make things better than have one enforced upon us.