|
Post by wez on Jul 27, 2006 13:58:52 GMT 1
What are these power sacks and what sort of rotation are we talking about exactly? At least in terms of medball exercises there are plenty which involve rotation of the hips to the shoulder like Schwanbeck swings (is that how you spell it) Indeed one handed ball throws too or medball hip drives that use block leg and hip motion only.... As for punch bags- are we talking about just laying into the thing using a full body motion. I know Jim Evs likes to do this, but then again he has suffered from a broken hand already this season. I also have tried in the past and it has only ever caused me split knuckles and swollen wrists. Someone explain please
|
|
|
Post by Big C on Jul 27, 2006 16:40:52 GMT 1
To develop power. Ideally you need to be using around 80% of your 1RM with sets of 3-5 reps with plenty of rest. However, med balls are only around 10% so ideally you could do with something heavier.
Eg.. Power cleans are done relative to your deadlifts 1rm.
the bags go up to 50KGs and you do very similar exercises that you would do with the med ball, but closer to that 50-80% 1rm range with sets of 3-5.
What i do with the punch bag is kneeling to one side. Rotating round and holding it with both arms outstretched. then throw the bag to the other side with arms straight using trunk rotation. Good idea to have someone spotting for when it swings back.
|
|
|
Post by slinger on Jul 27, 2006 21:37:09 GMT 1
here's an excellent article by jeff gorski, a top, well respected javelin coach from the US.......
POWER TRAINING FOR THE JAVELIN by Jeff Gorski
In all the throwing events the speed of release is the factor that has the most influence on performance, so the main focus of training should be geared towards its inprovement. The two main areas that this can be achieved in are technical improvement and physical ability improvement. There has been much discussion of various technical aspects and how they relate to throwing; for our purpose we will look at how technique is improved by power development. Good throwing mechanics, regardless of which event, is a summation of forces from the ground up- if done correctly, the action of the legs is transfered into the hips and torso. They, in turn, manipulate the chest and shoulders, which finally transfer the force into the arm and thrown impliment. This force progression also gives a good basis for where the most important areas of power development should be focused. The main areas of the body that will give improved results in throws if they can produce more power are the legs and hips; stomach, back and sides are next in importance, with the chest, shoulders and arms the last. It's interesting to note that in our country, with the focus on upper body throwing sports, most weight training programs have worked the upper body as the main area for improvement for throwing, and that has led to most throwers working on big bench press numbers until they learn the "ground up" progression.
There is also something of a natural break between the shot and the other three throwsby what I call "preceived weight"; the shot is the heaviest and is thrown with the least opportunity to "lighten" it with momentum from movements proir to release. While the hammer weighs the same, the energy gained in 3 or 4 rotations prior to release make it "lighter" and it can be thrown nearly 4 times as far as the shot. The discus is lighter than either and gains greatly from the the 1 1/2 to 1 ¾ rotations before release while the javelin is lightest of all and has the most opportunity to benefit from approach momentum. the variance from standing throw to competitive distance thrown is another measure of how much raw power is needed in each event: while a good shot technicial can gain 10% over their stand vs. a full glide or spin throw, variance between standing and full efforts in the other 3 throws range for 25% to almost 50% gained with good throwing technique. This should tell you something about where you should spend your training time in developing power. For the javelin thrower the need for "fast strength" or explosive power is at a premium- most of the benefits for them will come from non-traditional forms of weight and power training. The nature of the event- to apply force over a long path in very little time- dictates that you train to improve this ability and there is little room for slow, heavy lifts in this type of training. Please be aware that many excellent javelin throwers are capable of weight room numbers in squat, clean and snatch that may rival those of the other throwers, but that is often a result of their training for explosiveness and jumping ability- they can apply great force in a small ammount of time. But in the javelin big lifting numbers don't equal long throws. In college, with a 140 kg bench and a 240 kg squat I had thrown a best of 73m once; 5 years later I didn't bench, I jump squated with 100 kg and threw between 75 and 78m consistantly. Part of this was improved throwing technique, but it also came from power training that directly aided my ability to put energy into the spear.
There are a couple different areas of power for the javelinist that need to be looked at and they are used at different times in the training cycle. First is general athletic power that allows improving the all round ability of the athlete to move their body or and impliment. These are often used as early season conditioning exercises and consist of a variety of running, lifting, jumping and throwing over-weight impliments like shots, med balls, javelin balls and other items. While the traditional long distance runs have a place in general conditioning, more can be gained from repeated 400-800m runs as well as fartlek runs, where faster strides are included into a distance run. In fact, 200, 400 and 800m sprints/runs develop much of the type of basic leg power that is needed to build the higher intensity training upon. In fact, much of the training in the early season is lower intensity, longer duration versions of the training used in pre-competition and competitive times of the year- cross over drills on flat ground and uphill, long sprints, throwing exercises and jumping/bounding. This is a good rule of thumb in deciding what exercises to do during the base training. The key in the running/jumping/cross-overs is lower intensity over longer distances; 50 - 100m are good . The medicine ball/javelin ball throws are generally the heaviest weight used all year and done from a standing or only 1-3 steps. The idea is to work against the heavy resistance to learn how to use the body to transfer power from the legs up; minimal movement is used to prevent injury to the upper body from fast movement against heavy weight. This also teaches specific flexibility for the event that is needed when throwing at higher speed/intensity. Single arm throws with a 1 kg ball and two hand throws with a 3-5 kg medicine ball are good at this time. As technique becomes more natural/relaxed the weight of the balls drops and more speed/momentum is used (more steps) to learn how to transfer the speed into the body, which is then used in the whole body delivery learned from the standing throw. Lifting is lower weights and lots of stes/reps and based on the lifts that have the highest relationship to helping you throw farther- squats, snatches, cleans, trunk rotations, pullovers and dumbbell flys. This training is usually done from early fall thru early to mid-December.
The next step in the training progression, from December to early March, is to bump up the intensity of all exercises and shorten the duration of each exercise used. If October saw you doing crossovers of 6 X 100m, 4 sets of 12 throws with a 2 kg ball, 6 X 100m bounding, 5 sets of 10 4 kg med balls and 5 sets of 15 reps in the weight room January is 8 X 70m Xovers, 4 X 15 1.5 kg ball throws, 8 X 70m bounding, 5 X 10 3 kg med ball and 5 sets of 8-10 with the weights. Additionally, more specific event exercises come into play- resisted crossovers (either with a bungee cord or a weight vest) , deliveries with a heavy javelin or jav ball (about 1 kg) off a few steps, and the beginning of run up work to make the development of the full throw a "second nature" skill. This cannot be overlooked in training- the ability to flow smoothly from the run up into the delivery action without a break in momentum is a weakness in almost every American javelin thrower and usually it is because this exercise is overlooked. To continue with specific throwing power development a few exercises with weights that simulate javelin actions are included in this part of the season: these are quite specific and should only be used with athletes with a good feel of their throwing technique and the physical ability to execute them correctly. These exercises are not done slowly- they imitate the throwing action in both movements and in developing the stretch reflex that is so vital for good throwing. They also incorporate the whole body into the exercise- as should good throwing technique- and help improve balance, rhythm and dynamic action, all components of good throwing. These include plate swings in a throwing action (Fig 1), trunk twists with a plate (Fig 2) and a "skin the cat" snatch (Fig 3). I would recommend that both single and double arm throws from a stand use this "windmill" start to the throw- it helps develop rythem like that of a running throw. You can also include chopping wood with an axe or maul at this time, as well as jumping over hurdles and some plyometric box jumping. The focus on all of the hopping/jumping must be on a "quiet" landing and an active, explosive takeoff which simulates the action in the final steps of the throw. Hard, loud strides in the actual throw are a series of little stops that kill the flow of the throw- jumping with heavy ,hard landings teach you how make this error a part of your throw- another aspect of most US throwers. The actual work done in the weight room is higher intensity than in the fall- reps of 6-8 and an effort to move the bar smoothly and fairly quickly. The main exercises should be squats, snatches, pullovers, flys and seated rows. These included with the exercises already listed give you a great power development potential. Power training should be done in 3-5 sessions a week, depending on the athletes ability to recover and their experience; other training (throwing, general running and heavy strength training) make up the rest of the weekly cycle.
In the final part of the training cycle, when you are actually into the competitive season, the exercises discussed in the previous phase are continued at a higher level of intensity. This is when you want to hone the power base you've built to the finest level possible. Intense training sessions along with adequate rest, often overlooked as an important part in training, are what bring the athlete to the peak of their physical and technical ability. The weight of impliments thrown drops again- competitive weight or just slightly over for single arm throws and 2-3 kg for double arm (1- 1 1/2 kg for women)- and more speed in used in performing the exercises. A lot of how the weekly training routine is programmed is based on the competition schedule; big meets that require long throws are designed and trained for with more rest from hard power or throwing training proir to the meet to allow complete recovery. In general, you want to have 2 high level power sessions a week and allow a day or two before a competition to heal up. If meets are on Saturdays, then a Sunday session in the weight room after a jumping workout and a Wednesday routine of power throws, sprinting and simulation exercises is a good base to work from. Technique throwing and general training take place on Mon., Tues. and Thurs. with a light session, like a pre-meet warmup, on Fri.
The ideas put forth here have been used in some form by a number of good throwers for many years. There are, of course, a number of variations that can be included to meet the needs of the particular athlete. The purpose of this article is to give you some ideas of where the priorities in training should be and that power is developed by many other ways besides weight lifting. Increased levels of power are to make your throwing technique easier and give more consistent results in competition and training. There are no absolutes in athletics- things are various shades of grey and you must figure out what works best for you or your athlete in your particular situation. What I've set out is a basic outline with some good specific exercises that will help you find the best combination of training to get long throws .
i really like jeff's ideas both on technical and physical training and ideas and have great respect for him.........i hope he doesn't mind me posting it!
|
|
|
Post by wez on Jul 28, 2006 11:16:47 GMT 1
Yes i think he has some good points there. Its useful to clarify some things i have been trying to work on this year like translating absolute lifting power into throwing power.
I don't think i've yet manged this. Having made significant weight room improvements in the last 3 years- about 40% in some exercises i have increased my Pb by less than 4 metres!
Good stuff guys, i'll keep it in mind next time i'm grinding my teeth in the weights room.
|
|
|
Post by Big C on Jul 28, 2006 11:38:25 GMT 1
Just remember newtons laws from school.
Force = Mass x Acceleration
therefore, the muscle produces the same force shifting a lower weight with great acceleration, as a heavyweight pushed slow.
The only thing you have to take account for is rep ranges are based on time under tension.
eg.. strength training = 3*(2secs down + 2 secs up) = 12secs tension. So doing the weights lighter and faster, you'll have to do more reps to get the same time under tension.
Thats why the jav throwers in the article could squat big. They were producing the same force in lighter weight power movements as the other guys would with high weight, low speed.
the difference is a better neuro-muscular ability to produce force fast, as what is needed for throwing.
power = force/Velocity (the faster the better!!)
I'll do the maths at a later time cos I'm in a rush at the mo.
|
|
|
Post by wez on Jul 28, 2006 13:12:16 GMT 1
heres some maths if we assume that i am physically unable to increase velocity. going by my current ratio of jav distance increase to weight lifting improvement. Power Clean 85kg to 115kg =35.3% increase 64.06-60.86m= 3.20m improvement 35.3% /3.20m = 11.03% increase in power clean per addtional meter to javelin throw hence to throw 70m i will need to increase my throw by 5.94m and my clean by 65.52% up to 190kg doooh! Conclusion i either better order a truck load of body building products or try to improve my speed. Of course i'm overlooking technique here, but i'm just making a point
|
|
|
Post by slinger on Jul 28, 2006 15:28:00 GMT 1
agree wez...
there are far too many people out there who hammer the gym expecting results in the jav to just happen and of course are disappointed when they realise all the time spent in the gym hasn't materialised into a 10m jav pb!
of course the athlete's general power will have improved but this doesn't necessarily mean it is power you can utilise on the run way with a jav in your hand........general power is good to work on as it gives the foundation but it's the specific power that is the most important aspect - plyo's and medi ball exercises in my mind are more useful to the javelin thrower than olympic lifts [i'm not saying olympics should be discarded] i just feel particularly with the balls you can overload specifically and by increasing resistance progressively you are making the body systems adapt and increase the power capabilities to cope.........i'm sure any athlete will see increase in performance by just improving general power but will see further enhanced results from specific power increases.
my advice would be to get a selection of medi balls, lead tape to put on javs, throwing balls [light and heavy inc shots] some adjustable hurdles, a sand pit, a stop watch and a tape measure and of course a decent programme of exercises to do [of both strength and power related ex's] and get down to the track instead of the gym and i'm sure you won't be disappointed and it's much more fun that being stuck in a gym!
we are totally over looking the most important aspect of technical improvements but i'm sure everyone is aware of the importance of good technique.
|
|
|
Post by ironbrew on Aug 2, 2006 16:29:27 GMT 1
This is a phrase I heard some years ago "Strength is biological and Power is neurological" you go in the weight room to increase muscle mass and develop strength, to develop Power you need to develop and improve the neural pathways, that is how quickly and efficiently you can recruit the fast twitch fibres required to produce maximum muscle contraction to sprint jump or throw. Slinger is right by saying get out onto the track using plyometrics, heavy and light implement as these are event specific and will target and improve the specific muscle groups required to complete the throw. Lifting light weights fast is not power training, fast twitch muscle fibres are capable of exerting maximum force but the brain will only recruit them when required, the weight has to be relatively high (70 to 80%) with maximum concentration on each lift with low reps2/3s, the initial movement is all important (if doing power cleans, snatch or squat jumps) think about exploding of the floor as fast as the weight will allow, follow up with a plyo exercise ie bench followed by press ups or medi ball throw, cleans with bounds these really test your brains ability to recruit those lazy elusive fast twitch muscle fibres.
|
|
|
Post by Big C on Aug 2, 2006 19:25:19 GMT 1
You can recruit high volumes of muscle fibers without getting up to 80%. It's just hard to do.
A shot putter will be recruiting a large amount in a throw, even though he'll'/she'll be pushing less than 10% 1rm. and snatch will often be 30/40% 1rm.
The problem is peoples perception of fast reps. When shoulder pressing for example. telling people to use fast reps, the usual response is people trying to get as many out as they can in a specified time. To do this, you need to keep you hands on the bar which means that as soon as you've started to accelerate the bar, you're having to restrain the bar causing deceleration. hence, minimal muscle recruitment.
For maximum muscle recruitment, you'll have to throw the bar as high as possible which means producing a massive contractile force.
Obviously, in many gyms, this kind of training wont be allowed because of health and safety and damaging their weights. However, this is where heavy power bags can be useful.
Fully agree with the neurological aspect of power training. shows why bodybuilders are only good for bodybuilding. and using light weight power after heavy weight reps in a great method which i use.
to demo the effect... For people who have developed a reasonable amount of squat strength. after warming up, Try doing a standing Sgt Jump and note your height. then do a set of heavy 1/4 squats @ 110% 1rm for full squat(for 3-5 reps). Then do your jump again streight away and give yourself a pat on the back for the extra height you've just gained.
Now, doing that one set hasn't put any extra muscle on so the effect of the power increase is purely neurological.
|
|
|
Post by ironbrew on Aug 2, 2006 21:02:43 GMT 1
Hi bigc, your are right maximum power measurement is at about 30% of 1RM however as you have pointed out at the end of the movement you loose control so the lift becomes ineffective also at those weights the muscle cannot be sufficiently overloaded, the alternative for maximum power is to move up to around 80% the national strength and conditioning association (america) in their publications have for single effort events 80 to 90% and for multiple effort events 75 to 80% with reps of 1-2 and 3-5 respectively, its not really about how high you throw the bar but about achieving that maximal muscle contraction.
|
|
|
Post by Big C on Aug 2, 2006 22:13:02 GMT 1
ironbrew - I agree completely. The only time when i'd move down the weight is when progress starts to plateau with the high weight stuff so would need to shift the load to continue adaptation. I'd always work with a minimum of 2 perfect reps because you dont realy get the neurological adaptation to a single event. (as you would imagine, the body wouldnt adapt to a singular 'random' event). good to see an emphesis on good technical lifting!
Do you do much multi directional and transverse work?
|
|
|
Post by wez on Aug 3, 2006 8:46:23 GMT 1
Ok guys you clearly know a fair bit about improving neurological power. I need some help- let me first explain what i do and then perhaps you can make some suggestions. Major lifts- Power Snatch (77.5), Power Clean (115), Back jerk (110), Bent arm pullover (65), Back (165)/Front Squat (145) I do all of these to a fairly good level but the problem is that i am a bit slow in the lifts. What normally happens is that i train hard over winter 3 weights sessions per week of 3-4 exercises per session sets of 6-2. I try to vary it every couple of weeks but what tends to happen is that i gain a load of weight over the winter 5-10kg and maybe a bit of extra strength 2.5-10 kg per lift. Then over the summer i concentrate on low reps 4-1 at 80-100% 1rm only do each lift once per week, I lose a bit of the body weight but my lifts stay at max levels. I think because i regain some speed in the lifts. To be honest though none of my lifts look explosive. Perhaps my Back Jerk is the best at 110kg fairly fast, but as my arms straighten the bar slows considerably. Its the same problem for Clean and Snatch, i start off quick but by the end of the lift i am slowing considerably. I feel that what is happening is that i gain a load of muscle bulk over winter which allows me to lift more but i don't get any faster. Perhaps i do speedup a bit during the summer but as i begin to lose some of the bulk my power remains the same. Another weird thing is that i can on any given day go to the gym and pump out my previous best no matter what the lift! Even if i have lifted the same that week or only 3 weeks ago. The problem is if i put on 2.5kg extra i just can't do it. I'm fairly sure that my apparent lack of explosiveness during lifting is why my weights scores improve but my jav does not. Help
|
|
|
Post by Big C on Aug 3, 2006 13:36:21 GMT 1
Firstly, try what ironbrew said. couple your power with plyo which simulates the same movement. eg. power clean - jump squats (continuous to allow for stretch reflex) snatch - " bent arm pullover - med ball throw overheard.
At the beginning of the winter, pull your weight down and focus on technique and the correct feeling (helps to have someone watching. once you feel like you're accelerating all the way through the movement, start to trickle the weight up, always trying to get the feel of constant acceleration. In the beginning, start the initial movement slow until the weight is above your knees(on powerclean/snatch) which will allow you to get your back in a neutral position. Then gradually start to accelerate the bar from closer to the floor.
Also, there is a major lack in rotational work. i Feel a car analogy coming on! Leg Strength = engine power development = gear box rotational strength/power = chassis.
If you put a great amount of bhp through a rusty chassis, its going to twist and contort. In jav, you're trying to get all the force produced by your legs through your finger tips. to do that, your force has to travel through your body and trunk. If your trunk cant handle the force, it'll be dissipated away from the throw. Thats where the sack work comes in to get you to that magic 80% 1rm mark.
Last of all. All your work seems to be co-dependent (one leg depending on the other for support). Try including power lunges, split clean/jerk, side lunges. Single arm pullover etc.. Your training should go some way to replicate actions in your throw or your training will only make you good at lifting weight. Couple the single leg stuff with corresponding plyo. 1 leg jumps and power x-overs.
Right, got RSA in my wrist now.
|
|
|
Post by wez on Aug 15, 2006 14:12:21 GMT 1
cheers bigc- i'll be done things a bit differently this winter.
|
|
|
Post by petsku on Aug 16, 2006 9:11:28 GMT 1
If you put a great amount of bhp through a rusty chassis, its going to twist and contort. Seppo Raty expressed once the same thing in other words: It is hard to launch a cannon from row-boat
|
|