5 throwing videos from 05/02/07

[Administrator]

Here's a clip from a training session on sunday morning. One video per thrower. They are, in throwing order:

Georgie (1st year U17)
Sam (Senior)
Johnny (1st year U17)
James (Senior)
Bonne (1st year U20)

Any comments welcome and appreciated.

media.putfile.com/javelin-99

Cheers

[wez]

Well here are my thoughts take a look for yourselves and see if you agree...

First off its obvious that you all train together because you have similar styles, and i mean that mostly in a good way. Here are some things i think you all do well although some are a little better than others. Good carry +point control and flighting, good general acceleration towards end of runup, and best of all great follow throughs for everyone all of you follow the direct path of the spear straight ahead with no falling away to either side.

Now the bad news, with the exception of James all of you are aiming too high with the jav and trying to launch it into the stars. I suggest that you lower your visual targets a little, the optimal flight angles for spear should be 35-40 degrees with a neutral or following wind and as low as 30 with a headwind. On the same issue you need to realise that alot of the elevation that the javelin gets in flight is due to an active right hip working against a solid block, this effectively makes the spear jump up out of your hand and is the reason why it is possible to throw high even with negative angles of attack.

eg its ok to bring the tail of your jav up a little because by blocking hard the jav will launch itself. This way you can achieve the high flight trajectories of 35-40 degrees without having to aim your spear at that angle before you throw. I kid you not that a more neutral attack angle will make it alot easier to really get your weight behind the spear and achieve a more powerful stretch reflex as you will be getting more pressure upwards off the floor rather than trying to hit with everything upwards which will infact reduce the pressure from the floor.

Now some individual comments

Georgie

You have a great long range pulling motion but shorten the length of your throwing base slightly, you may not need to do this conciously just make sure that you get your feet down alot quicker in the final 2 strides eg the right at hip strike first then the blocking leg only a fraction of a second later, almost together basically. All in all plenty of potential if you can just sort that out.

Sam

You are the biggest visual target offender and i think it is that which causes the other bad knock on effects in your throw. In this throw it is above 55 degrees perhaps even 60!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noooooooo....
Your throwing base is way too big and the right leg is facing at 90+ degrees to the throw direction- you have no hope of ever getting your right hip into action from such a deep position as a result of these things your left blocking leg is taking an absolute age to eventually get itself onto the ground. On the positive side you still manage to achieve a pretty decent bowed position with your back and flight the javelin well. The fixes are simple and should help one-another, lower your visual target to 35degrees this will make you more upright and make it easier to get your feet down quicker especially the left leg which is so delayed right now, when you come in and attack with the right leg and hip drive make sure the foot faces slightly forward eg at less than 90 degrees to the throw direction preferably for you i think around 60- if you look at james his is like 30 degrees which clearly suits him but your flexibility is better so i think you can get away with a bigger angle but not 90!
btw i've written alot for you and its not because your technique is so bad but as you are the coach i think it will help alot to explain the problems so you can understand why the fixes work and finally shake off your lazy hip issue.

Johnny

Your right foot is pointing a little too far forward in the throwing base effectively counting your legs and hip strike out of the throw try moving it out to a greater angle like 45 degrees to the throw direction and then really work the hip strike rotating off the ball of the right foot until it points directly ahead and you have transfered the weight dynamically onto your left blocking leg. Also your throwing arm is getting a little eager and is moving before your legs have finished doing their bit. Try to think of the lower body initiating the throw and work on turning that right leg into the hip strike. Otherwise good stuff.

James

I see some major improvements from before, good blocking and holding your body up well in the delivery and your right foot is turning over full which is great. BUT that over eagerness to spank it is still there, your right arm is still creeping in slightly before you hit the full 'bow' stretch position. Just try to leave it back until youve fully extended the hip and you will get a more powerful pull. It might be a flexibility issue- if thats the case i suggest you do some forced stretches holding the jav back and rotating your wrist inwards and forcing the twist on the spear with your free hand.

Bonne

Your dynamic and elastic abilites are obviously excellent and the throw technique is pretty solid but there are still a couple of flaws holding you back. You are landing too heavily on your right leg in the throwing base which is causing you to sink down and the consequence is that your block not only comes in too late a bit like Sam but also the block leg is bent and you straighten it in the throwing motion. This effectively means your body and the jav dip down and then rise up a little all in the last 3 strides a 'concave' movement. Try to stay a little taller in the final cross steps and really be on the balls of your feet because you are spoiling some potentially awesome throws by giving way with the final right leg. It may also help if you use a slightly smaller throwing base so you can work off the ball of your right foot faster getting the hip fully extended which will in turn get your left leg down quicker and cut the delay time down- if you do that the block is also more likely to come down straight and you will transfer most of that fantastic runup energy into the spear.


All in all guys some v good throwing and with the few tweeks i have mentioned i can see every one of you pb-ing significantly this summer..... and SAM make sure they do mate

[wez]

A quick expo on flight trajectory.

For a spherical object like a ball the perfect flight angle to gain maximum distance is 45 degrees as it gains both distance and height at equal rates and therefore when it reaches its highest point and begins to fall back down it will travel an equal distance on its descent going 1m forward for every meter it drops in height.

A javelin is not spherical it is long and thin this means that when it flies the point breaks through the air first and there is little friction along the length of the javelin, but as it flies it catches air underneth the length of the shaft effectively holding it up. For this reason we want to maximise the time that the javelin stays flat in the air eg parallel to the ground. So we throw the javelin at a lower trajectory 35-40 degrees letting it spend a bit more time in the middle phase where it begins to turn over and head back down to earth. To get the most out of this mid phase given that the javelins weight favours the tip we need to throw it with as neutral an attack angle as possible. eg at release the tail and tip should be at the same height passing it 'through the tube'

[Patience]

Quick question from me on how to correct the angle of attack. How much of this is caused by the position of the left arm around the impulse stride. I notice this is high in some of the throwers (I do this myself). I aiming to have this arm to that it doesn't go above the plane of my left shoulder. That's not to say that it shouldn't, but if I aim for this then it will probably not be as high as it otherwise would be. If you see what I mean, guvn'r.

[Administrator]

Some great advice there Wez, thanks a lot. I'll print this and take it with me to training next time around as I know Sam and BB look here but not sure that George and Johnny do.

From my techincal point of view I think you are spot on. Aside from flexibility work can anyone recommend any drills to try and keep the arm long. Jimbo has mentioned to me trying to physically pushing the hand upwards and back as I come into the block so as Wez says, the spear will jump out of the hand. Does anyone have any other thoughts in their head as they approach the throw to keep their arm long and high?

Left leg has been my onvious focus so far so I hope that the confidence remains in my base and I can make these upper body changes to improve!

[wez]

James, your welcome mate and make sure they do get their advice cos i'm confident it will help. About your problem of creeping arm, if you stand still with the jav back in position and begin to rotate your hip can you still keep the arm back or does stiffness in the shoulder make it bend. If it does then shoulder rotation stretching is the answer if not then its a mental issue. Dave Ottely used to solve this problem by starting his cross steps with his elbow bent and then straighten it as he progressed into the final stride. Thats one solution but could be a real bugger to get timed right.

Patience, i don't think the left arm position should have such a great effect so long as it doesn't raise sigificantly above the plane of the shoulders. If you have a video of your throwing take a look at the angle across the top of your shoulders they should be parallel to the ground or tipping slightly backwards towards the javelin. eg 180-160 degrees if they are at 180 and you keep your point controlled through the block then you should release with a perfectly neutral attack angle. At the end of the day the arm doesnt really do anything its just a tool to help effect your overall body movement

[slinger]

the first thing that strikes me is the lack of intensity of the throws [except for james maybe] being aware the event requires a great deal of finesse, i'm also aware the event is one which requires full effort, with this in mind my feelings are that throwing should always involve this type of throw as it's specific to competition, especially for younger throwers and still learners, often technique learned off shorter stuff isn't transfered to that on the run up, as they are two completly different beasts. Throwing javelins in training to me should be as specific as possible most of the time how the javelin is thrown in competitions.

i've seen lots of people who aren't bad off shorter stuff but are worse off the run up and not many people at all who are good off both the shorter and the longer stuff.

wez says "On the same issue you need to realise that alot of the elevation that the javelin gets in flight is due to an active right hip working against a solid block, this effectively makes the spear jump up out of your hand and is the reason why it is possible to throw high even with negative angles of attack."

here's a great illustration of this -

www.youtube.com/watch?v=svZ7DPi7rLI

this country to me seems to have lots of good potential athletes who have talented arms, but rarely use their legs well and do as wez suggests and i don't see it on these throws either, which of course isn't a bad thing as it shows there's plenty more to come, something that strikes me is there's a slight lack of run up speed transfer via a bracing action of the left side, if there was then you wouldn't see the carry on running look after delivery, you'd see a big "jolt" as the right hip slams against the solid left at left foot plant, whilst the upper body remains side on creating separation of the hip and shoulder axis and delay of the throwing shoulder. There'd be little recovery as momentum transfer would be efficient.

here's sergey makarov showing excedllent early use of the right hip prior to left foot plant, creating good separation and delay -



jan zelezny showing great early use of the right, which aids him into achieving a great block, to transfer momentum, note the early use of the right take him hard and fast inyo his left which sends momentum up, not on to his left.

home.sprintmail.com/~jesusvirella/_uimages/zelezny98.48.JPG

i wrote this a while back after observations of elite javelin throwers and it helped form a basic outline for a technical model. I find having a technical model helpful and important as it sets an outline of what must be attained and gives me and the athlete a set goal.

Fundamental Javelin Technical points

I have split the throw into 5 phases ; -

1. Body position and actions during transition [X overs]
2. Position at final right foot contact
3. Lower body actions during delivery
4. Upper body actions during delivery
5. The recovery

The ideal technical model can be seen in the javelin photo sequences given.

The ideal at each phase is the following ;-

Body position and actions during transition

The body should be of a neutral position i.e. not leaning back or forward and should be stable. The javelin should be carried in a high and controlled manner. The legs should be working with width and should be powerful, working towards the ground, using the reaction off it to propel themselves forward in their running. The athlete should work off an extended left leg prior to impulse stride and achieve an impulse stride that is “in” and not too much “up” this ensures speed is carried into the delivery.

Position @ final right foot contact [FRFC]

The athlete should land in a position where the upper body is still stable with the throwing arm still high at the back. The javelin should still under control with the point next to the eye line. The right foot should land at about 2 o clock on the clock face and slightly just and so ahead of the bodies centre of gravity or just over it - the chin, knee and toe should be able the form a vertical line. The left foot should be advanced of the right foot at this time, this ensures correct balance and ensures the left is grounded quickly in the left foot plant during delivery. Exceptional athletes will land on the right foot at the time with the ball of the foot where the foot remains on the ball prior and during to the hip strike, landing on the ball of the foot ensures the right hip will strike quickly and effectively. Jan Zelezny demonstrates this skill excellently, during the 1995 world championships the time for Jan Zelezny’s right foot to land and begin the strike took 0.09 seconds, less than half the time of any other thrower on the day – what this does is it not only ensures as much speed and momentum is carried into the delivery, but also helps in creating separation of the throwing hip and shoulder.

Lower body actions during delivery

As previously described, the right foot should begin to work and strike as soon as possible after landing, whilst the upper body remains side on. The left foot should be grounded heel first and if the right hip has struck early it will do so, due to the carry of momentum through. The left leg should remain braced at this time - the left leg must remain braced as to act as a stable platform and aid in the transfer of run up speed up through the body and into the javelin. The right foot should remain in contact with the ground till after delivery.

Upper body actions during delivery

The upper body should remain as side on as possible through out the run up and the same applies for the delivery – up until till the left foot plants for the block, only the early work of the right hip should slightly open the chest and shoulders towards the throw, this then creates separation of the throwing hip and shoulder and creates what’s known as the stretch reflex action. At this time the throwing arm should only just begin to strike, the initiation of the upper body in the delivery is a pull from the chest and shoulder. Only then the throw, leading with the elbow can it be struck with the arm in a whip like fashion, this is known as “delay.” The body and arm should follow through after delivery fully.

Recovery

The recovery should be to carry momentum through after delivery, in an ideal situation this should be high over the braced left leg, this ensures that the run up speed is fully transferred up and not down or through.

i have gone on abit and digressed, but sam's group do alot of good things and he should be commended because of his efforts, it's just all about taking them to the next level and helping them progress and realise their potentials.

[slinger]

if the left arm goes up too much on impulse say, along with the sightline then the right arm usually drops [like a see saw effect] and then during the pull you drag the jav OR throw it very high, try keeping the left arm down and tinker and try different things with your sightline - at different heights - even 50m down field for example and for the arm creeping in - work the legs quicker so it hasn't got time to creep in, get the right to get you hard into your left quickly and the arm will/should/hopefully be still back.

[slinger]

admin said:

Here's a clip from a training session on sunday morning. One video per thrower. They are, in throwing order:

Georgie (1st year U17)
Sam (Senior)
Johnny (1st year U17)
James (Senior)
Bonne (1st year U20)

Any comments welcome and appreciated.

media.putfile.com/javelin-99

Cheers

how come georgie's throwing a 6?

[wez]

Now theres some top cooperative coaching for you, analysis by Wez, technical backup by Slinger. Spot on! how often do you see coaches or elite athletes bickering over stuff when they could be symbiotic instead. Guys take special note of the Hecht throw that is indeed one of the best jump out of hand throws i've ever seen, it looks like its gone up about 2m before it even leaves the screen!!!! No no no you don't need to aim high, infact i remember PY when he first started coaching me got me to use the horizon or even opposite jav runup as my visual target. I think thats the best advice giving thread we've done - karma for everyone

Now i want to see some active hips and big stretch reflexes chaps

It would be great if you could work on the points mentioned and then repost some vids in a month so we can compare.

[Administrator]

Great stuff Phil and Wez - thats what this forum is all about for me. We'll take this advice away and work on it and lets hope by the time our first comp comes up those areas have improved.

For me this time of year is an ideal time to start tweaking technically. For me personally, I am now fit/strong enough to throw a lot of throws in one session and am starting to rediscover the rythm of the approach so I can consistently fall into my final few steps in the same way each time making it eaiser to adjust things when I get there.

Georgie was throwing a mixture of 700s and 5/600s in that session I think - think Bonne's throw may also have been a 5/6/700 spear.

[wez]

I think that when you are working on technique you should mostly throw with the correct weight because different length and weight javelins can just confuse the issue. Play with the other javs when your technique is beginning to work more consistently. Just my opinion but as i'm always right and clearly know everything take it as the law........

[Administrator]

This season I've mostly been throwing a 400g javelin to warm up and in my early throws. I find that the weight and size of the javelin allows me to concentrate on my legs which is very much my focus in training until now. When I feel confident approaching at speed with the dart in hand then I change to the 800. This has worked well for me this winter. I do float some 700s out occasionally but only when I've run out of 800s really and never touch 500s and 600s because they don't agree with me (or me them)!

[slinger]

lighter and heavier implements have great roles to play is training, including technical issues but more so specifically strength speaking issues i feel, it is well said that that the weight shouldn't alter from the norm by more than about 20 -25% or so, either lighter or heavier, as i feel certain technical aspects suffer, my feelings that throwing lighter implements leads to a lack of training for the stretch reflex action, which is key - the same i feel applies to medicine balls.

throwing implements that are too heavy can lead to technical deficiencies, as the body has to compensate by doing things a little different and may lead to the whole neural recruitment of the throw being different to that of competition and therefore undesirable. What ever you throw it the style should be competition specific imo if it affects this then it's too heavy or light.

people have been known to throw incredibly heavy implements the germans especially, up to almost a kilo and a half, but there thinking is/was that whatever you did last year, next year must be a progression and more........i have seen karen forkel performing some imitation exercises with a 3 kilo javelin and a weight jacket with ankle and wrist weights, apparently she started doing them with just a stick at a young age, then a javelin, then a heavier one etc etc improving year on year, does it benefit, i'm unsure, i think it's just the german mentality.

different things work for different people, but mostly it's a progressive thing with heavier implements and the same for lighter implements.

maybe georgie is throwing the 6 as part of say a gradual cross over to the 7? and the same for bonne with the 7 to the 8?

i personally never bothered, as soon as my last under 15 comp went, it was 700g javelin throwing straight away in training as it can take a little time to adapt - especially the from 7 to 8 as the 8 feels so different, as someone with smallish hands i found the thicker grip odd, plus i held the tail low and with the 8 being longer the tail hit the ground initially, i think when i got my first champion at 16 [u/17] i went throwing in the fields at the back of the house and maybe only threw high 30's, i couldn't believe it! i thought my throwing career was over!!! but i soon got used to it ;D phew!

[mike]

I think slinger touched on this, but I believe this is the most important thing. The setup of the runups are all wrong. Everyone is toppling over themselves as they run. When you runup it is very important that the upperbody weight is behind the legs, or at worst on top of the legs and never ever ahead. Why?
1. It is hard to run when holding something and leaning forward.
2. it is harder to control the javelin point at all times(virtually impossible)
3. you can't effectively transfer speed into your throw
4. you have no width in lower body
5. you have no width in upper body
6. you won't create much of a stretch reflex
7. you will not throw as far as you should unless you get this right
Here's how to do it:
Get a video camera and a protractor. Work out where 90 degrees north of the horizontal is. The clever ones will work that out as vertical. Watch runup on video and make sure that the bracing side of the upper body is always at worst vertical to the left hip or even better back behind it (80 degress perhaps), until the left foot hits the deck.
Then you can worry about hip strike, straight arm, landing on the toe, pulling over your head, sight line, throwing angles, what javelin to throw, whether your right glute is firing or whatever else you can think of, cos it's almost impossible to make the end better if the lead up to it is all wrong.