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Post by lifebeginsat40 on Aug 23, 2007 15:07:25 GMT 1
To add to this debate....I think that what Nije may be saying is that there are some people who just cant throw the javelin, and by that he means a long way!? I do think however, that some can be taught to throw it though, although perhaps the distance will not be there. If I may as be so bold to use myself as an example....although I am Shite at throwing it as far as distance goes...there are a lot of people of the same age as me....club vets or southern mens league standard that I do beat....amazing as it sounds. April last year...never picked a Jav up in my life...Javfest actually...all of 23M......now although I am not training at all, that has gone to the heady heights of 33.95....not a long throw by anyones (least of all me) standard. But......I have got better, and I am beating others who do other events...and the Javelin when needed. The same as Long Jump...I have never done it for 25 years...but 5.05m from scratch aint that bad...again, I could get 6m with training! It always amazes me, at some meets, you can get a 6ft something bloke, built like a brick you know what, throws the Jav and barely manages 25m...but it happens regularly! Bedford, 6 M40s this month....we were all around the same distance, but I did actually win......and that was because I taught myself it.....now if I had a Coach, I know for sure I could get over 40M....for a little skinny 41 year old bloke aint THAT bad...is it?? I suppose at the end of the day...there is taking part and/or having fun, and there is having to compete and having to succeed? Ooooo and there is a vast casm between them 2! 2 penneth worth This Winter, I will be trying to achieve both those targets, and I will do it...mark my words!!!!! 40 Jav, 6m Long Jump oh, one last thing......the same can not be said for Pole Vault....it hurts!  |
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 15:43:10 GMT 1
I think you're bang on there Chris 'we club folk' are not international athletes nor are we likely to be, so different rules apply but as to KS i'm sure she can learn to be a bit better than she is at spear even though she probably isn't a god given talent  and Chris for one years jav training 10m of improvement aint too shabby, you probably wont get the same again next year but if you stick at it i'm sure you will still improve nicely. |
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 16:34:25 GMT 1
Individual differences that is the cornerstone of human life. Having taught various age groups throughout my teaching career from novice to elite, some people just cannot do stuff and what's more shy away from doing stuff that is too hard. I trained with people who basically did the same training as me but threw 65m and I threw 81m so why didn't they throw as far - individual diffs. Just because you are athletic does not mean you can throw a jav and the best athlete does not necessarily throw the furthest as yatesy or backley can attest to..
I am still pretty strong and have a basicall good shot technique but I only throw 12.50 - 13.00m standing and less with a glide when I should do a lot better but I don't. How many other throwers can throw jav to any level - very few. It is an awkward event.
I get frustrated some times when people see distances as numbers and postulate that people will throw over 80m -then why haeve they not. 50m is a good throw for a woman and having coached several to throw that far who were talented throwers - I would not put KS in that box. Yes you'd expect her to do 50m but by teh saem token why didn't daley throw 80m - because he's a decathlete and not a particularly good javelin thrower for his athletic ability!
40m is also worth alot more than 55m in the jav IMO as well nearer 60m
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 16:39:27 GMT 1
Also I don't think we should put too much presure on Kelly and as I said before around about 38m would be about right for her and a creditable performance. Wez it is like you going to European club champs for belgrave -throwing 59m adn Bill being pissed off at you because you should have thrown 70m as your training performances suggest you should be throwing 70m. Lots of people out there should be throwing 70m but they aren't - as not everyone achieves their potential and not everyone hits it at the saem time!
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 16:43:16 GMT 1
And finally, disappointed that she hasn't done any comps before the games - which is a bad sign I think.
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Post by jeremy on Aug 23, 2007 18:02:04 GMT 1
Wez,
I've just PM'd you. Ist to say that I'm "not a handbag type guy", 2nd to apologise if you took it this way, and 3rd, to say that I still don't agree with you!
Jezza ;D ;D
PS Chris ir right: there's lot's of "6ft rhinos" who don't have a clue how to throw any of the 4 throws, and yes it is satisfying to beat them!
PPS: That's not to say they don't have talent, just that they don't have or apply "skill" to the events.
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mike
Pitkamaki
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Post by mike on Aug 23, 2007 18:21:18 GMT 1
Having had the pleasure of watching kelly throw in almost all of her sessions for about a year, I can honestly say that I have never seen her throw over 32m on any occasion, and I have only seen her throw in a shape that almost made her look like she knew what to do about twice and only from walking throws.
However, I have seen her throw a ball about and I wouldn't say she has a bad arm, infact reasonably good.
The problem is she has never been informed the things which need to be in place, and the things you definitely should not do when throwing. She has been taught only the advanced stuff (the non important stuff) and the basics were never taken care of. eg. she grips the javelin like she is holding on for dear life, and her arm is locked rigid. I have seen her knuckles turn white as she is running (trying to run, cos she hasn't been taught). How can anyone one be expected to be throw well if that is not picked up on and be told that whatever else happens your arm must be relaxed. Those basics again, no-one ever picks up on them.
With a tennis ball or something like that she throws it as if it was second nature, easy flicking and reasonably fast. It all comes from the usual old mistakes. She never stays sideways when she runs up, she way ahead of herself as she runs up, her left arm is rigid as she runs up, she reaches too far on her plant. Simple things which are all ignored because we're all to busy looking for the hip then arm thingy, which is very, very difficult to do if the other things are not in place to make it happen.
Good luck to Mike McNeil, I think she is very coachable, but one step at a time and from the very beginning. She doesn't even need to hear the words impulse, hips, strike, pull, and soft right etc for a very long time.
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Post by pj on Aug 23, 2007 19:34:03 GMT 1
An excellent response Mike. That is exactly how Mike Mc will see it. He will break the event down for Kelly into bite size pieces, nothing too advanced to take in, and hopefully when 'they' eventually put it all back together it should work, preferably in time for Beijing.
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 21:15:03 GMT 1
Also I don't think we should put too much presure on Kelly and as I said before around about 38m would be about right for her and a creditable performance. Wez it is like you going to European club champs for belgrave -throwing 59m adn Bill being pissed off at you because you should have thrown 70m as your training performances suggest you should be throwing 70m. Lots of people out there should be throwing 70m but they aren't - as not everyone achieves their potential and not everyone hits it at the saem time! Actually Nije U got the euro clubs thingy a bit mixed up- it was Jim who went in the end. Anyway i see your point. My 70m campaign got scuppered by a knee injury- but it aint quite over yet.... Jezza, My handbag is officially back in its holster ;D ;D ;D Interesting post by Mike btw it sounds to me like she has got more in the tank... anyway shes in the right camp now and best of luck to her. Funny how it takes a bit of a barney to get people interested in the debate...i'll start it next time Jezza  |
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Post by nije on Aug 24, 2007 0:27:24 GMT 1
WEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WTF is wrong with some of you. Talk about picking fights - I was not making a refereence to James at the Euro clubs as you are now appearing to suggest that I was having some sort of go at him which I plainly was not. I was talking about you Wes if you had the opportunity exactly how I wrote it so don't go trying to interpret it any other way.
Mike - you seem unhappy!!!!!!!! You have a penchant for highly critical and contradictary posts!
Did I misread your post or were you being disrespectful of one maybe two coaches and challenging her own ascertion about having a eureka moment with John - which then didn't manifest itself in meters. I'd be a little hesitant in who you chose to disrespect my friend. She should look at herself a bit harder as a coach cannot throw ir or run the race for you.
This isn't necessarily a dig at you in particular but there are several on this board who are 'theoretical coaches' as they don't actually coach anyone or haven't really reached a standard of performance where people would sit up and take notice. And the same people then become very opinionated about who is a good coach etc. The fact is that the javelin event (men and women) has been our most succcessful field event over the last 20 years by a long way where we have had sporadic if any success at the other field events so I wouldn't be too quick in rubbishing the coaching ability. We have some excellent coaches who are now being joined by younger ones coming through and some are having great success already.
This forum is great but at times it annoys many - i.e Wes thinking I was making some sort of personal slur against him. If I was I would call you a wanker in PM trust me.
It's also endemic in this anti UKA rhetoric (admittedly not necessarily this site) - people looking for excuses as if they are victims. When I was throwing in the best era of men's throwing we have ever had - there was no lottery or system we just got on with it and in reality only two people made a living out of it - but the rest of us carried on because we loved what we were doing. I am in the process of trying to get assistance for a couple of people - now if they dont get it - it wont be the end of the world, what I do know is the the loghborough lot and all the others at these HPC's had better facilities than we did and some get support so where are the results? Dare I suggest we keep it simple and train hard and then if we find ourselves not to be the next Mick or Steve - there is no shame in that - just be the best you can be.
I take my hat off to people like the godfather, Wilf, Brian, Ken (and others who don't instantly come to mind) and more recently caroline and Sam who are bringing good athletes into the sport. Did you know that Sam got 2 x 1st a 2nd and a 4th at english schools - for an experienced coach that is good going but he is relatively new so how good is that!? He's not the finished article but who is and he is showing that he wants to learn and proceed in the sport so good on him. Irish,Welsh and Scotish schools are great events but I am sorry to say are micky mouse in comparison to English schools so well done to him and others.
We need to work hard, get the basics right and work together and not over complicate the event I feel and miss the basics - maybe back to basics could be a slogan - a well used one at that.
Peace out.
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Post by wez on Aug 24, 2007 8:21:58 GMT 1
My handbag is officially back in its holster ;D ;D ;D Nije, Didn't think you were having a dig atall- and actually Jim did rather well considering he was throwing with a broken off bit of bone floating about in his knee!!!! He had surgery (again) right after that. peace big man |
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Post by Caroline on Aug 24, 2007 9:18:32 GMT 1
Thanks for those kind words, Nij! I have a couple more 'secret weapons' who have joined me in the last few weeks.... watch this space! Can I just say though, gentlemen, that it is very easy to misconstrue tones and intentions when it's written down.. hence people think that a dig has happened when it hasnt! Emails are notorious for that - these days I find myself taking more care with those work emails then I would ever have done with a letter!! Sarcasm and humour doesnt always translate too well.... ;D However (back to the thread) , we all have a common interest in moving javelin more and more into the public eye (down with joggers! ) and Kelly achieving greater distances will give the event more publicity whether we like it or not! You never know... with Mike's guidance she might even become a javelin ambassador... |
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mike
Pitkamaki
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Post by mike on Aug 24, 2007 13:17:57 GMT 1
Nige, thanks for your nice comments, and putting me straight.
I was completely unaware that I was so unhappy, knew nothing about coaching, had no idea what I was looking out for in a thrower, and that I've done nothing worth a piss, so therefore should have no say.
I shall humbly bow out of this, since I am but a novice. How silly of me!!!!
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Post by thegodfather on Aug 26, 2007 20:31:11 GMT 1
I know that Kellie did not show a huge improvement in her distance today- but I thought overall she looked much better than the last time she performed.
Also every throw was an improvement on her previous.
I think if she continues to work with MM she will improve.
I thought the BBC experts were so negative to her and Jessica Ennis.
When Jessica threw her PB of over 38metres-the so called experts were very critical.
Saying what a poor throw it was and then backtracking when the distance was called-
When I saw the replay of this throw I thought it was good-
She will certainly improve her distances-
Finally to finish," well done to Kellie for getting our 1st medal and to Jessica for her 4th spot"
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Post by nije on Aug 27, 2007 0:53:42 GMT 1
I get on with you mike, but many of your postings are very negative about coaches in this country which I thought I would point out to you and all that we have been successful as an event. The written word may be misconstrued but KS has a probelm with her jav, throwing off one foot and lack of allignment is the main one. Irrespective of her run up etc, any knowledgable coach would start from there. The piont I was making to you was, that you appeared to be (and have been in the past) disrespectful about the standards of coaching and I thought I would be objective about stating where I think the sport is on those terms. JT may not have worked for you or others but he is well respected in the world of javelin. An if anyone was to be further critical - (not of you) but Loughboro has had some talented throwers (including you) for some time and few of them have progressed and one who has -Goldie - did so when she went home! This is where I have some sympathy for the throwers who were there - why wasn't there someone in place to get you altogether for example. I guess at the end of the day - if you cannot find the right coach for you - get the video camera out and do it yourself. Very few people - history will tell us - have been successful in this approach.
I think you could accuse both her and JE (as DL said in the studio) of not actually committing to the throw i.e no speed and it looked like slow motion.
I stand by what I said about text book coaches as we can all criticise but your opinions hold more weigh if you have actually coached people and improved them i.e. clubnight coaches who go down and get their hands dirty, which is why I mentioned the coaches off the top of my head. Maybe it's not what you say but how you say it sometimes. At the end of the day, we can blame our coahes to a certain extent but at the end of the day - we as athletes do the throwing. I make points hopefuly without rubbishing anyone in the process - I read from your few posts tht you do as if we as a collective are all to blame. Comments I make about KS throwing ability are also followed by the fact that she is a fantastic athlete and by not being a good javelin thrower deosn't make her a bd person. There are some particularly brittle people in athletics as that episode with collins marks out of 10 demonsrated. Maybe not the best idea, but something footballers haev every match in variousu media publications adn I'm sure they don't complain abotu it. IF you do badly - people will comment as they will when you do well.
I thought overall KS did relly well but again her javelin was poor and Mike's expression on the TV siad it all - even though it is oipen to interpretation KS to beat the likes of Kluft has to improve many events but to win a major title after Kluft has gone, she needs to improve to at least 40m. JE is in the same boat as well. A good jav throw is essential in this event!
I hope that in a year or two - I may have continued success or similar success that I had when I was in the US coaching at my new appointment with the difference bring this time that I may have some very talented athetes to help - and Lianne is someone who I think can and will throw a long way. The last person I thougt this about threw another PB today and will probably throw a couple more before the season is out and if looked after may prove to be one of our most successful throwers ever.
Maybe we could read this back next year and see how things trun out but interestingly enough, I googled MAtti and saw something he worte on a foreign website saying (last year)that he wanted to train this winter and throw 50m next year - well he did so and more. IF you told him at the start of the year or last year he have thrown as far as he has now he woudln't believe it and even now I thing is only getting his head around how good he is.
I don't like predicting but I'd be disappointed if Lianne hasn't got the B standard next year (56m) becuase she has the armoury - if she responds to the training and technical modifications - I thnk she'll suprise a few people along with any others who join in with our group.
I'm personally looking forward to my new job and working with various coaches over the winter. I dopn't want to fall out with anyone but woudl liek us all to work together and maybe leave some of our egos at the door!
PS - Gutted about what has happen to slingers wife - her coach has relocated and basically has little support or alternatives. A bit like my athletes when I left birmignham. Coem and move to Cardiff slinger and co we'll find someone for you to play with - Mike can come as well -plenty of jobs in the principality everyone!
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