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Post by thegodfather on Aug 16, 2007 18:02:05 GMT 1
It is good to see that she has linked up with Mike McNeil If any can get her to throw well it will be Mike
Interesting the comment in the A W is that he going back to basics with her rather than attemting to coach her as a fully fledged Javelin thrower-
I look forward to seeing recover her confidence and get back to 40m or more,. This could see her with a medal chance.
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Post by sadiemk on Aug 16, 2007 20:43:03 GMT 1
yes it certainly can well it would be good to see her over 40m!! you does looase a lot of points on her jav ! she will bag some with 40m though
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Post by nije on Aug 16, 2007 20:55:38 GMT 1
It was quite interesting to see how the article appeared to 'rubbish' the efforts of JT, SB & MH. I don't know if you read it that way but I thought it was a bit harsh!
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Post by thegodfather on Aug 16, 2007 22:11:30 GMT 1
I did not read it that way- my feelings were that Mike was a really good choice to work with Kellie Kellie has had some stick on this forum-Javelin is obviously difficult for her-
A lot of comments were made that she needed to have someone to coach at a more basic level. Jt-SB & MH are specialist at coaching international level Javelin throwers The fact that Mike was asked to help her ,reflects the vast experience he had over the years coaching at all levels -Coaching one of our most successfull women and also top male throwers but used to working with throwers at a much lower level.
you would not by any means call Kellie an international javelin thrower- The expression horses for courses come to mind
I have every confidence this is a wise choice of coach for Kellie and I wish this partnership every success
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Post by wez on Aug 17, 2007 10:47:27 GMT 1
Nije does it really matter what people write on walls? Kellie has obviously not progressed under their tuition which reflects probably more than anything els a lack of understanding between athlete and coach. That Doesn't mean that the coach is bad but more that they couldn't talk in her language. I Hope things Progress for her now and she can get over the obvious frustration she has been going through. She probably won't ever be a great spear woman but if she can get into the higher end of the 40's it needn't be a bugbear for her anymore. Good luck i say.
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Post by jeremy on Aug 22, 2007 23:13:32 GMT 1
Like everyone else, of course I wish Kelly Sotherton well. And with her new coach Mike.
Failing to "coach Kelly" to success, doesn't make anyone a bad coach per se.
By the way Wez, getting to high 40's from where Kelly now is currently (around 30metres) is quite a big ask.
Mathematically a bit like suggesting you go from 63m to 100m. Probably not that realistic.
Hopefully the two will get on, communicate, bond, improve confidence as well as technique, all of which will add up to better distances.
Jezza
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 2:49:41 GMT 1
I'm not sure I understand the one about what people write on walls ther Wez!!!!!!! If you mean opinions don't matter then I agree as the proof of the puds in the eating, and KS and jav has not tasted good for some time. Other people who coached her had her throwing good distances in training from what I've been told - it just appears SHE has the problem. As mentioned before on other blogs, I wouldn't want to stake any coaches reputation on an athlete who clearly has a problem with this event. We will find out next week more about how good or bad she is rather than unfairly writing off Mike as a coach if she does badly on the basis of a few sessions or if SHE throws well we can all marvel at what a good coach we all think he is. I'm sure Mike is like me - if she throws badly, he won't take it as a persona; slight on his coaching. I think people miss the point a bit with KS - she has always had problems with her jav and she is probably at a point where she has little confidence in it. Remember when she spoke of eureka moment with her jav a couple of years ago when she was by all accounts throwing PB's in training and then threw poorly again in comp. As the say ' you can teach that!' All the more puzzling as she is a fantastic world class athlete otherwise and not the first heptathlete to have problem with the event from these shores!!!!!
I have a sneaky suspicion that at 29, she will rise to the challenge and do what she has to as JE is all over her at the moment and getting better. Good luck to both of them I say.
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 9:40:39 GMT 1
I'm not sure I understand the one about what people write on walls ther Wez!!!!!!! If you mean opinions don't matter then I agree as the proof of the puds in the eating, and KS and jav has not tasted good for some time. You've got it! If she has indeed thrown well in training previously (which i dont doubt) as you say then she certainly won't be the first to find it difficult to replicate that in a comp situation! IMHO its one of the most important skills you need to learn to have any success with the spear. Perhaps then it could be a good focus in coaching her to try to install some means of translating what she does in training to the comp runway. Lets hope that she does manage to produce a reasonable throw in Osaka. Jeremy, when i said high 40s i was thinking more of Beijing than Osaka. Still when it comes to fixing technical issues as you must have seen yourself, the improvements in performance can be astounding. She already has the physical characteristics to throw very far, but maybe not the arm or aptitude so i reckon something a few M's short of 50m is realistically achievable. For me to throw 100m ;D on the other hand is quite a different thing as i don't have the physical ability to do so, Kelly on the other hand does have the kind of elasticity and power required to throw 50m its just the technique and comp head thats been holding her back. In 2003 i had real Lull and even had a comp where my best was 46m! So i know what its like to hit rock bottom- anyway i sorted myself out with a 'little help from my friends' and pb-d the following year with 63.84m. Thats my own experience, and i bet i'm not alone in having been there- I believe it is possible to turn things around pretty radically.
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 10:31:53 GMT 1
Hey Wez,
I have seen KS throw lots in training when I was based in Birmingham and as goos an athlete as she is - she is not a javelin thrower. SHe hasn't got the arm for it and i think you will fin d that the 40m throw she once did is quite far in excess of what she had done before. It's a bit like when Stuart Faben threw 76m indoor british record - you cuold easilt have expected 80m from him that summer - but this was far in excess of his PB o someone who was basically a 70m and bits thrower most of the time with one or two mid 70's. Some people have a par distance at the various stages in their careers. I think if KS throws around 38m - give or take either side of that - that will be a job well done. However, I have faith in the teaching profession and have seen some excellent coaches in many sports and I donlt think that KS will be too much of a challnege that Mike hasn't already come across in his many years of teaching. He is an excellent teacher, experiecned in coaching novice to elite, a wise head, a good bloke and moreover, the sort of guy who will be listened to and command respect and has plenty of teaching methods in his arsenal to deal with all sorts. As I said - most of this should come from her but throwing 50m - I just cannot see she had the armoury for that - otherwise it would have manisfested itself long before now!
I know there seems to be gloom and doom around British athletics - but that was the same going into the european indoors and it ended up being a good champs and with the likes of Ohorougou running well the other day - I think there will be some very good, average and a couple of bad performances at the worlds - no more than is to be expected - and expectations are low anyway so good performances are a bonus! DC will probably come away from the champs saying that this was a building block and if we did badly, it is a true reflection where we are at present. We need all of our best to be firing on all cylinders and maybe a bit of luck to get excellent results!!!!
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 12:25:31 GMT 1
Well you've had the benefit of seeing her throw so you may well be right, i just find it difficult to believe that a person with so much all round natural talent just cannot throw the spear. After all 40m for women is probably comparable to about 55m for men and lets be honest it doesn't really take much talent to achieve that at senior level just so long as the technique is reasonably ok.
Maybe i'm just an optimist but it seems realistic to me.
Its just a thought but does anyone know what shes like at throwing a ball, there are some people out there who just can't do it. If shes one of those then there isn't much hope.
Talking of hope, it would be really nice to see some good GB performances at Osaka, i reckon we do have an outside chance at 5 or so medals. That ain't too great in the grand scheme of things but what can you expect from a nation who has a very poor system for generating athletes. The whole doom and gloom outlook comes from a public and media that expects to see excellent results all the time, but those expectations are based on no solid logic atall...you could say much the same thing about The England football team.
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Post by jeremy on Aug 23, 2007 12:50:04 GMT 1
Well you've had the benefit of seeing her throw so you may well be right, i just find it difficult to believe that a person with so much all round natural talent just cannot throw the spear. After all 40m for women is probably comparable to about 55m for men and lets be honest it doesn't really take much talent to achieve that at senior level just so long as the technique is reasonably ok. Maybe i'm just an optimist but it seems realistic to me. Its just a thought but does anyone know what shes like at throwing a ball, there are some people out there who just can't do it. If shes one of those then there isn't much hope. Wez, that's a bit harsh. "It doesn't take much talent for a senior to reach 55metres." Maybe you are right though. Maybe the vast majority of us are all talentless. Always a bit risky to talk about what other people should be throwing. maybe you could argue that with the amount of training you do, your age and physical attributes, and with your never ending knowledge of how to throw the thing, you must be fairly short of talent if you can only throw it 63metres?!? My personal opinion is that you are talking Crap. My personal opinion is that it does take talent to develop the skills of javelin throwing. Throwing 55metres as a senior would put you well in the top 100 in the country. Throwing 40m would put a spearwoman well in the top 50. Hardly talentless! Jezza
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Post by nije on Aug 23, 2007 12:53:11 GMT 1
Funny enough, i rambled on about some of my school experiences and then deleted them. But I did have a 6 foot 7inch 2nd row who could throw a rugby ball quarter back style nearly as far as me. However, after countless lunch times with him and others - he couldn't get any of the throws. Out of that group emerged four lads who medalled at english schools including one who won the shot three times and one lad who threw over 50m and then 60m as U15/U17 so it wasn't as if there wasn't others around him (all were rugby/cricketers and played at athletics) - He is a barrister now so it wasn't that he was stupid either!
CAtherine Merry topped all of the ranking lists as an U13 and U15 but she could not throw the javelin either. I know one muliti events coach who goes to the hurdles and long jump groups and gets them to throw javelin and if they haev any sort of natural technique - he takes them into his multi events group. I know a few people who do that with girls as all of the events are quite similar barring the jav. I should also be noted that little Denise Lewis threw the shot 16m+ including a 16.50/70 foul and is in the women top 10 all time list so you don't have to be big or bulky to throw those sort of distances (KS was throwing 15,50 indoors according to Shaun P as well).
I had two sprinter girls do some shot with me once as they wanted me to teach them multi events ( and one of them had a soft spot for one of my javelin boys!!!!) They both threw over 10/11m straight away and were reasonable jav girls. One I notice is still competing running 12.0/24.8 when she could be a good heptathlete and as tempting as it was to get involved coaching her - I didn't have the time. At a conference, somebody pointed out that all of the women's olympic gold medallist won them at events that they didn't start out in! Maybe we could all consider that. Athlete first, thrower second!!!!!!
PS just looked at AW and JE and KS are quite a way back from the main contenders but if JE continues her progress and gets 5/6 pB's as is not uncommon she could be in with a chance.
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 13:55:55 GMT 1
Nije, So if i read you correctly you are saying that some people just can't throw the javelin. It could well be true (although i secretly hope it isn't) and if thats the case poor Kellie probably won't really get much further than she has already. Speculation aside i suppose there is nothing more us forum geeks can do except wait and see what happens. Jeremy, I think you've miss read my meaning there a little, its not my intention to offend you or anyone els for that matter. When i say talent i'm thinking in comparison to what is required to qualify for international championships. Going by that definition a male senior (23-35 years old) athlete who trains regularly for javelin and who throws 55m is not highly talented. Thats not to say that an U20 throwing 55m is of mediocre talent because they clearly have alot of training time ahead of them to improve many meters. I really can't see how you can argue against that, it may come across as harsh but its a fact of life! Its unrealistic to say that we all have bags of talent when we clearly do not, if we did then we would all be international. "For me to throw 100m ;D on the other hand is quite a different thing as i don't have the physical ability to do so" but for people like me who do take their sport seriously it is fun to compete at club level and take the little improvements and rewards as they come, we can always dream of reaching the top but thats a place reserved for people with supreme talent and the support and luck required to get there. My original point was supposed to mean that people with a little bit of talent at their disposal can easily expect (injuries etc notwithstanding) to throw roughly 55m for men or 40m for women if they only were to put in some structured training. If you want to get personal about it then i openly admit that i am clearly less talented and also lucky than the top throwers but to nitpick- i have thrown further than 63m
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on Aug 23, 2007 14:45:19 GMT 1
Ladies......!
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Post by wez on Aug 23, 2007 14:48:16 GMT 1
oooh i know........pass me' handbag margaret
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