The red flag man!

[motherhen]

Discussion point:-

Where is the most appropriate place for the judge observing the landing aka the red flag man?

I'm sure we have all seen a broad variation on this and had several disagreements with them!

Time to chat or perhaps vent

Motherhen

[sam]

When i am being the flag man at a competition i endeavour to stay as low to the ground as possible to offer the javelin as much chance as possible to land point first. I also make sure i am in the approximate are of where the javelin is going to land (outside the throwing area of course).

[fieldofficial]

The official who is doing the flags, should watch the warm up throws to get an idea of distances being thrown. So when the comp starts he or she has an idea of where to stand for point of landing area. The official should try to keep as low as possible to the ground to ensure that the javelin lands point first.

[motherhen]

Its good hear some other people also have my view of the rules. The questions is what about those judges that dont do that? What's you experiences, how have you handled the red flag man?

In my younger days I had a problem with an offical from my own club. He was stupidly harsh with me because we were from the same club to the point I used to virtually thump on in the ground to get a throw measured. What is even worse was comments before the event such as "will only need two red flags today as your throwing" etc.

Eventually a frustrated father and coach both took video camera from different angles both sides of the landing area and pointed out to the offical that they would do so and any complaints would be taken further. He never was so bad after that

[Gamey]

We had a competion last year where the red flag man was incompetant & was blatantly biased towards his own athletes. The main thing in this situation is to complain & in this instance after the complaint the referee watched & overuled two of his subsequent calls.

It is difficult though. I have often been the red flag man & always try to visualise in my mind a what point I would call a foul. Being a thrower myself I always give the benefit to the thrower if I am in doubt. Other than that if I call a foul then thats it.

I'm not excusing poor officiating but at events like the mens league the official is likely to be a volunteer who has little or no experience.

[Mack]

I never really have a problem with the red flag man... as, when I throw my javs always land point first (never flat).

But, I used to live in France and red flag man who also collected the javelins threw them back to the athletes, landing a few meters away from us.
Luckly my father inlaw was the head official, and it stopped as soon as I told him.

For the red flag decision, I have always throught as long as the jav lands between the point and grip, it was OK.

I find the women have a little problem as their javs have different weighted points and the javs land flatter.

[sam]

the worst javelin for the RFM to adjudicate is the 700g javelin. i do believe that it is the only weight that is not as front biased as the mens and womens javelins. the nemeth 700g javelin is so evenly balanced that unless you throw over the point you will have trouble making it land point first. it is an awsome javelin for throwing far but terrible for landing.....

[HaarJaaN]

//of-topic
That 700 gram Jav. I am so glad that i now only have to throw the 800. It was a nightmare that 700 gram Nemeth. I wouldn't recommended it to anyone. However it wasn't a nightmare for a friend of me. He has thrown the thing an amazing 70.73 m. (bjorn blommerde 17) Even at those distances it's the Nightmare of the Red Flag Man.

//ontopic
as i am an official/coach/athlete i think it's very important that as the red flag man to know exactly what the jav is going to do with some windy circumstances. It is also very important. That u get all those irritating little chaps outside the track. ( just like in Liberec (down in zelezny's home country) there was a 13 year old boy pierced with a Javelin). the other as stay low with the ground and know where the jav is going to land are also very important. But those things U can see at the warm-up

Arjan

[willow]

Think we should all learn to make the javs land properly - as Mack does. Then the officials are good guys..untill we find other faults. But if the jav doesn't land point first, and stay in the ground, the grip gets wet or dirty or something, so its in your best intrests one way or another!

[Caroline]

What I cannot understand is those officials who insist on standing in-field. I have seen javelins fly over their head..... Must like hospital food I guess.

[slinger]

a point mentioned on learning to flight the jav correctly , with the 800g javelin when thrown correctly will always land point first and tbh usually stick in - depends on how hard the ground is and also what jav you use.....when thrown right with a correct flight path it'll hit the ground at an angle of something like 30 - 45 degrees - but don't quote me on that figure! ;D the only time it will have difficulties are when someone is using a very high rated spear and they don't throw very far ie a 30 - 40m man using something like an orbit or nemeth 95.......also throwing in an incredibly strong tailwind will make life hard as the wind hit's the tail of the javelin and makes it tail often landing tail down - but again mainly for people who aren't throwing very far - it does still happen to guys throwing 70m plus but with that flight time it does give time for the jav to eventually come point down.........the women's jav isn't as front end biased as the mens so this can be tricky.....a perfectish flight using the correct javelin for you will result in the nose just and i mean just coming down first for ex. if i threw a nemeth 75m 600g about 30m it could land flat but if i wanged it 80m it'd come down point first........the 700g is a different kettle of fish altogether! this is the truest of the jav's regarding aerodynamics, it's the only one which a lot of lift can be created and if you are lucky enough to hit one right they can be very exciting for the athlete as one can suddenly throw much much further than ever before, a proper 700g flight is best seen in a slight headwind and thrown with a very slight negative angle of attack - too much positive angle and it'll stall but a negative angle gives it a chance to float and create lift onto the oncoming wind and when it tapers out of it's flight path a chance to land point first - very often this kind of throw will land very flat with the slightest of point down landing - so officials keep an eye out!

[willow]

well someone's been researching! ;o) Whats the best jav for me then slinger? Female, 15, throw 30m+, still have alot left to prove, only been going a little while. Normaly get alot of height on it, Neil likes technical stuff - i'm not all power related.

[slinger]

something like a nordic star 50m rated would be a good javelin for you - it'd be good because you'll be able to use it as you hopefully progress......i feel something like a nordic viking is a good jav for novice athletes it has very limited abilities......keep to nordics as they fly well high......nemeth 600g javs prefer a lower, more penetrating flight.........research??? you must be joking!! hahahaha - nah just what i've learnt over the years and from what i found out throwing all of the weights.