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Post by nije on Apr 11, 2008 9:47:06 GMT 1
Hi All
Apologies to the other forum I have pinched this from (a good question/thread) but I am interesed in what people think in the jav fraternity about the central contracts and how - if any - it has affected us throwers (not just jav).
If you didn't know, the basic talent level you get basically £500 and a discretionary another £500 whihc has to go throught the regional manager.
Is this worth it or better than nothing? Incidentally, there are other funds you can tap into to increase this. I know a couple of my athletes have picked up money here and there but are struggling to get implements and money for warm weather training/comps. However, they are benefitting in other areas. It really does inspire you to get to the next level where benfits increase substantially.
What do we all think?
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Post by nije on Apr 11, 2008 13:18:02 GMT 1
You know what - I meant athletes contracts - sorry for the mistake. don;t think there are such things as coaching contracts are there. Hence why I was referring to athletes getting money.
To answer the AD forum (I have no log in!) I haven't had taken any athlete off anyone who hasn't asked to join thorugh the correct channels or had it happen to me - yet. As far as Geoff says for Wales - we do pay national and regional coaches for their time that they are accountable for. It's not a fortune but up to £1500 for expenses and time.
This isn't meant as a dig at anyone but I believe that certain coach/coaches have assembled a decent group of throwers including ones who were formerly on the UKA programme and I cannot think of anyone they coach who have been poached. I stand to be corrected but I can not think of many athletes who have been poached by the 'system' but I know of some who people think have been poached but in reality it was not the case, relocating to a university initiated a change for example. Sorry to not address this on the AD directly!
Peace!
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Post by Aaron C on Apr 11, 2008 14:45:44 GMT 1
AD forum??...you have a link to it?
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Post by slinger on Apr 11, 2008 15:15:19 GMT 1
aaron don't bother, it sucks...
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Post by Caroline on Apr 11, 2008 18:55:05 GMT 1
Well as far as I am concerned, nobody seems to have a clue who is coaching whom. I had 2 athletes in the Power of 10 last year out of a group of 6 - 3 if you include Dan Pembroke who does all his winter conditioning work with me.
No recognition, no Power of 10 watch.. zilch. It's not about the money, or about the watch... it's about someone saying yeah, that was good, well done.
So how would anybody know if I'd 'pinched' an athlete from anyone, or had one 'pinched' from me?? Perhaps it might be time with 2012 dawning that there were more formalised contracts between athletes and coaches? At least for the higher rated ones... but maybe it's time we all reckoned that athletes (or athlete's parents, or even - gasp - clubs!) started paying for our services??
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Post by nije on Apr 13, 2008 11:09:40 GMT 1
Sorry to bring this to this website but I cannot repsond to it on AD until my registration is accepted but this is what Frank wrote 'Just found this post by Mike Winch, I have re posted it because Nige believes Poaching doesn't exist I have been approached by a group of coaches who are incensed that they are having their best youngsters poached by 'high performance staff (  ?)" and moved to 'approved' coaches. They are very much at the point of exploding and are gathering forces to make a stand. How sad this is that the system in place requires the unpaid professionals to abide by a code of conduct, but the professional amateurs to abide by no rules whatsoever with the blessing and support of our NGB. This can surely only lead to a complete collapse of the basis on which young athletes progress in and through the club system, as I can't see many top coaches staying in a sport which cheats and uses them in this way. I would like to hear from any coaches who have suffered this pattern of attrition, so that we can start to quantify exactly what is going on. I have always found Mike to be totally honest, and lets not forget his level of coaching experience and of course his personal insight into UKA at a level far higher than most. I think turning a blind eye comes to mind when reading Nige's Professional viewpoint ' I enjoy a bit of banter and debate but it is difficult to really engage when a debate is not created and statements are treated as absolutes. I simply made a statement " I stand to be corrected but I can not think of many athletes who have been poached by the 'system' " which does not imply that poaching does not exist but cannot think of many. SO that isnt' what I said Frank. Also I believe that there is a larege group of throwers in the North who are being coached in Sheffield (I assume by BP) who have moved there and I heard through the grape vine that Jo Blair is now with BP who was with Tony Mineccelo (sorry about spelling!) last time I heard so my point about poaching does not seem to fit in this scenario. I also have the utmost respect for Mike and perhaps his statement is just - but I wil repeat the above statement that there are few who have been poached (so far - so I am correct when I have said this) and there have been some who have relocated such as MLF and more recently Tim BEnjamin who left his coach to join Colin Jackson - and then returned to the previous coach. In that case it was the athletes choice and ironically any poaching charge would have been by and athlete leaving a UKA coach. However, I am aware of other cases where athletes left one coach for another under questionable circumstances. 'Poaching' is something that happens within clubs on a regular basis and is not a UKA phenomenon BTW so I think we should look at this problem in the correct dynamic. When I worked for a top BAL club, poaching within the club was also an issue even when it wasn't and sometimes it simply was because a coach wanted to save face wehn another athlete didn't want to train with them for some reason or another. T My challenge to you Frank is to produce a sizeable group of athletes who this has affected - just as you challenged what ZHP said when she claimed there was much support for something when you rightly identifid that there infact wasn't!!! One last thing to think about - my professional role as you call it does not govern the way I think or cloud my judgement. I try and look at issues from all angles. We are a small country in Wales adn some athletes have to travel great distances to see their coach or visit an appropriate indoor faciltiy. When they get there - I think it is only fair that they get the best service possible and if that means there are a pool of coaching resources to tap into, then that is fine. One thing the East region jav squad benefitted from was that all of the jav coaches at the end were confident in coaching anyone of any ability. It wasn;t a case of I know best and listen to me, but we discussed issues and how we want to throw and all were preeching the basic fundamentals as well as allowing personal styles and flair to be expressed. I happen to think that the 8 or 9 coaches in that area who attended learned alot (or so they said) and were confident that what they were saying was making a difference. This is what I think coach eductation is all about. AS for finding talent - we got about 90 school kids from the cardiff area nominated by their schools to come and have a go at the throws and as a result have got about 30 very good throwers now invited to our regional development squad (about 4 or 5 U15 40m jav throwers who need some assistance and a few 40m hammer throwers of no turns!) and I bet we will get some good throwers out of that over the next few years. BTW that is not part of my professinal remit - but I did it and got some good coaches/throwers into staff it and it a good way forward. Next stop deeside and swansea! The nice thing was tht thte teachers asked when are you going to run the distance, jumps and sprints one. Not my remit - but if noone else is up for it - I'll organise it as well as an athletes with disabilites one. Now that is the sort of stuff I do i.e try and create opportunities and be proactive and dovetail new atheles into existing programmes and ensure those programmes are appropraitely staffed and there is an appropriate coach for them further on down the line. Working for UWIC Welsh athletics and UKA programmes is not a sin BTW and nor does it make you a UKA apologist. I also lecture (unlike other UKA coaches - as that isn't my full time role!)- and have 40 scripts to be getting on with - so it's not all fun fun fun!!!!!! There will be a few new jobs comng up I dare say in the English regions so apply for them if you want to progress the sport. |
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Post by nije on Apr 13, 2008 15:33:21 GMT 1
Ha ha
AD denied my account!
As you said slinger what a joker! So much for free speach!
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Post by slinger on Apr 13, 2008 17:12:54 GMT 1
fact is, if you go on there and speak against frank and his imaginery friends then you get banned or slated.
his son however is a good lad.
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Post by jimevs on Apr 14, 2008 15:19:52 GMT 1
Sorry to bring this to this website but I cannot repsond to it on AD until my registration is accepted Nige, no worries about posting on here - of course Frank is free to reply to you on here - there is no ban on people using this site - would be good to hear also on javelin issues from the father of and I believe coach of one of our big throwing talents of last year and hopefully this year. |
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Post by nije on Apr 14, 2008 20:25:12 GMT 1
hI Jim you said it would be good to hear ...issues from frank...
well here is his worth while contribution
Nige said
Ha ha
AD denied my account!
As you said slinger what a joker! So much for free speach
At the last count this was his 5th attempt his others have been banned for unacceptable behavior, free speech on this forum carries a few responsibilities, and as WE said, WE are not open to UKA employees, especially ones who have made intimidating threats to one of our members on an other forum!
The last one on the jav forum I recall was Nige calling tom Dobbing (a real gent!) a gobby tw*t, says it all really!
Slinger of course was banned for being extremely rude, in the same way Javelin Sam, James Everard, and other members of the Jav club
have been, but they fall out with each other from time to time which explains a lot! But slingers Wife is a lovely Lady, ex top discus thrower who will be on tv shortly on Gladiators!!!
So Jim evs yuou are also singled out.
Frank when not talking to himself get his facts wrong. I have not been banned on five other occasions to my knowledge but left the AD forum and only recently tried to answer this issue on it when he banned me.
As far as Dobbin (a real gent) well I am glad that me and Frank agree as Tom was the one who called me a real gobby twat in one of our exchanges and when questioned him about this term, he thought it was an acceptable term of joky reference. So I repeated his own phrase to the gent!
AS far as I can remembr the last time Sam and co mentoined frank was when Chris rumbled him for the many names and alias' he had and then had the check to accuse me of having aliases.
It is a shame that Tim who I have conversed with before should aslo take Frank's line as well. I know plenty about the sport having been in the top echelons as an athlete and know most of the coaches and players in the sport for many years so suggestiong that I am ignorant of what goes on is a little wide of the mark. You would be suprised at what I know and I am surprised at what other think they know.
I think many can attest to how hard I work in the sport and the university who employs me (not UKA). My UKA involvement is that I coach three people on the UKA programme, several on the welsh programme and more on the UWiC programme. I am an instructor and assessor for UKCC coaching courses (as I was for rugby and was getting qualified for soccer) as well as a qualified soccer and rugby referee which I have little time for now but did the occasional sundays and tournaments at my last job. I was invited to be the lead coach for the national javelin squad and was paid as a part time employee of UKA asI do if I do any coaching courses. I also do some work in development which is not part of my remit but I offer my services for free (not UKA). I also co-ord the East region throws squad (not UKA). Iam the weksh shot coach (not UKA) Now if I didn't do that - I would sit in front of the TV or be down the pub most evenings, which incidentally is what I do on the odd night. I have racked up a fair few miles including 1000 last week (600 in 2 days) for athletics as well as fitting this in to see my duaghter and girlfriend.
I like being busy and like to feel that I am contributing to a greater good and with reference to anything me and Tom had to say to each other - I did PM him and as usual will be glad to sit down and have a drink with the fella next time I see him (hopfully this weekend at the jav fest) having known the guy since he first joined the RAF and came down to Ipswich harriers those many summers ago - being verablly abused by Proctor from the shot circle all night! Another fond memory of the banter we exchange from time to time.
I seem to recall inviting Frank and Brian to my flat for the english schools last year - that's the sort of evil bloke I am!!!!!!
I don't think this is a popularity contest - but I think the sport should be about doers and not talkers. TAlking the sport down all the time serves no purpose and those halcion days obvioulsy passed me by because when I was a young athlete, the phrase was that you did well inspite of the system not because of it. We all know where he sport is adn hearing of yet another athtletes giving up because they couldn't ge enough lottery really typifies the ambition and the lack of reality people have about the sport. Mick Hill had one bad year and had to get a job! This is a guy who woudl be in the T&F news world top10 every year and how many other athlete achieved this on the track for example. Never heard Mick complaining but he came back better if I remember correctly.
What I do know is that I would be looked after if the current system was around when I was 18-23 - and we have much bettter facilities and a larger number of good coaches in my event for example. If the lottery has got one thing right it has provided some good facilities to play in - the fact that many of them are then empty for much of the time is another issue - fortunately here in Cardiff we have a uni and it is used all of the time and every night.
From what I read on other sites, the anti UKA brigade are losing face as protesters for protesting sake. Even Mike Winch is getting bad press and he is one who does talk sense on the whole. It is sad that some feel that the sport has to be knocked all the time by certain quarters who seem to be marginalising themsleves.
Rant over!
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Post by jimevs on Apr 15, 2008 14:19:58 GMT 1
I have indeed been singled out by Frank but for him to say I was banned for being rude is a little laughable. I quit posting on there as we all know the site is very biased and Frank holds 10-20 usernames and deletes things he does not agree with. If he can show me an example of being "extremely rude" I'll happily apologise to all 20 of his aliases. On that subject, saw something funny a while back on the 8-lane discussion forum. Seems Frank has a number of people who are not fans of his! This was the link: www.athleticsfrankly.blogspot.com/ |
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Post by dobster on Apr 15, 2008 17:21:12 GMT 1
Just got back from Portugal - who is Frank and dont get me involved in the tit for tat on other forums - I aint interested!!!!!!
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Post by slinger on Apr 15, 2008 21:42:05 GMT 1
I have indeed been singled out by Frank but for him to say I was banned for being rude is a little laughable. I quit posting on there as we all know the site is very biased and Frank holds 10-20 usernames and deletes things he does not agree with. If he can show me an example of being "extremely rude" I'll happily apologise to all 20 of his aliases. On that subject, saw something funny a while back on the 8-lane discussion forum. Seems Frank has a number of people who are not fans of his! This was the link: www.athleticsfrankly.blogspot.com/great site! very funny! and to clear up my situation... i was a member of that forum as like many other thought it might be a good laugh......not to be the case. frank....i DID NOT get banned...... I DELETED my account after posting that others should do the same imo, as the forum's a joke... and yes frank, my wife is lurvely and she is on TV's gladiators - coming soon sky one - don't miss it! ;D |
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Post by Caroline on Apr 15, 2008 22:19:21 GMT 1
I got banned..... and I was an Admin!! I got sick of them bullying people who didnt agree with their points, and I said so. Next thing I was banned... but they still have me down as a member!! (I'm classified as 'God' haha)
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Post by nije on Apr 17, 2008 13:03:21 GMT 1
Just read that Phillips Idowu has changed coach from John Herbert to Aston Moore. Curious one as it is not long before the OG. JH also coaches Jade Johnson among others and as far as I know is helpred by UKA and was offere a UKA coach role (which I thought he had, but he also runs his own design firm I believe). It sounds like a UKA -UKA coach switch. rather than poaching as others would have you believe. ALthough I could be wrong.
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?)" and moved to 'approved' coaches.