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Post by beepee on Jul 6, 2004 1:02:09 GMT 1
After spending two and a half hours tonight working on Micks run up it brought it home to me how important it is to work on the full run up with meticulous accuracy, notice that I said accuracy and not speed. After twenty + years of throwing you would think that it should be second nature by now and Mick would not have to worry about it but, and heres the but, it is because his run is so accurate that we are having a few probs with it, I will explain. His full run up is always the same from the withdrawal to the run off and then on to the throw and to the scratch line but if he is a centimetre over his first withdrawal mark then he is a centimetre over his run off mark and so on etc, etc ,etc it is that constant, so what? Well we have studied a lot of his long throws (over eighty) and with every one of these throws he was inch perfect on the withdraw mark and hence he was able to have a long tall rangey action at the release plus two recovery strides, if he missed the withdraw mark he crowded the scratch line and the throw was always rushed and resulted in a short stabby action with the end result of ten or more metres deficit in distance. We set up timing gates at the "run off mark" which for Mick is the pull through mark for the measure tape or eight metre mark from scratch line (the nail) if you like and we set them 6 metres apart. The intention of this is to measure his run up speed at "run off" or drive of the left into the throwing position as this should be around 6metre per second for Mick. It stopped the clock on 1.1sec so more or less spot on the desired speed for him, this is how detailed the session was tonight. The moral of the story is that when we slowed the first part of the run DOWN and he hit the marker he was throwing really well but when he tried to speed up his run he missed the mark and crappo was the result sooo firstly yes a full run up is a "must " and must be worked on at every session but it does not have to be at steam train speed and the essential part of it is the repetitive accuracy of the withdrawal in the first instance that is probably the key to continual long distance throws. Sorry about the length of the post but at least it gives you an insight into one of our tech sessions.
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Post by sam on Jul 6, 2004 1:12:25 GMT 1
always good to get an insight into a truly great thrower's training
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Post by motherhen on Jul 6, 2004 11:42:23 GMT 1
It does no harm to be reminded that slow to fast is the key sometimes in making sure you get the importants bits of a throw right. The whole run up doesnt have to be done like a bat out of hell. Lots of athletes do the full approach becuase it looks good, they think they'll go faster (faster=further always to them!) and a full approach makes them a PROPER thrower. I find teenage males are one of the worse for this logic (Sorry its not meant to be sexist just a regular occurance when I work with male throwers). The important bit is to get a good withdrawl and the last 3 /5 strides right. If there wrong forgot the run-up as the distance wont be any better. Its good to know we all have to work on that regardles of how practised we are! Hope this posts makes sense but sat at work with a stinking cold so not being very productive!
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Post by sam on Jul 6, 2004 18:24:31 GMT 1
my run-up has never been effective i throw the most explosively off 7 cross steps. i seem to lose the plot when transfering from forward running to cross steps
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Post by motherhen on Jul 7, 2004 10:27:00 GMT 1
Ah that brings back some 7 stride drills I used to be made to do. When I moved to Leeds I began working with Wilf Paish who observed that my legs worked and arms worked when I threw but unfortunatly they didnt work together making my run-up a waste of time! Essentially it was the first two stride being up, back (ie withdrawing the javelin) and then my usual five strides withdrawn and throw. It doesnt sound that hard but getting the arm and legs in rhythm took ages It was around that time I started my usual 9 stride run-up, before that I always added a few more steps that looked good but didnt help my throws at all!!
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Post by kamikaze on Oct 16, 2006 13:58:04 GMT 1
I am not a coach and I have only tow seasons throwing behind me.
However, I was a reasonable sprinter and pole vaulter, so I know abit about running and running fast to a check mark.
In my humble opinion, it isn't a matter of slowing the first part of the run down.
The key thing, that works for me, is to concentrate on the right foot hitting the check mark and then thinking about the withdrawal, without lowering your gaze.
Somehow the feet then tend to look after themselves!
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Post by wez on Oct 16, 2006 15:40:10 GMT 1
This is a pretty old thread- but anyway i think you missed the point. The aim of the runup is not to hit a check mark or even to be traveling at a certain speed. Its instead to get yourself into a good throwing position at a speed you can control and accelerate from. The point about starting slow is to make sure that you can accelerate into the line and get the sequence of movments in the correct order. The key of acceleration is that it increases release velocity.
There are a tonn of amateur throwers out there who can do a nice fast runup and put their blocking leg down perfectly 20cm off the line. Great but mostly they are either traveling at a uniform speed or even worse slowing down- result poor technical throw and poor transfer of power. It would be better to slow down the start of the runup so by the time you get to cross steps you are further back and are in a position to accelerate- also you won't then crowd the line in the delivery position.
Its a good piece of advice for anyone having trouble with their runup to just slow it down a little until they can control the throw while maintaining acceleration. After that buildup the speed bit by bit.
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Post by kamikaze on Oct 16, 2006 16:33:46 GMT 1
Not sure Isaac Newton would agree with you.
V = U + AT
U being the speed of the javelin prior to the arm strike.
The higher that speed (other factors remaining constant) the greater the release velocity, V.
Maybe I'm not the one who missed the point?
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Post by slinger on Oct 16, 2006 16:48:21 GMT 1
..........but running too fast and decelerating will increase the chance of losing the point.... ;D
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Post by Patience on Oct 16, 2006 16:57:55 GMT 1
Not sure Isaac Newton would agree with you. V = U + AT U being the speed of the javelin prior to the arm strike. The higher that speed (other factors remaining constant) the greater the release velocity, V. Maybe I'm not the one who missed the point? Well, let's examine this. In javelin throwing, the critical moment is around the time of release. Therefore, you may have hurtled down the run up at 15m/s, but if you have failed to convert that speed (a very common problem) then your speed, U will be less and your acceleration, a, will be in the negative. Therefore your release velocity will be very low. Newton's formula may be correct, but the interpretation to where it is applicable in the javelin throw is crucial.
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Post by slinger on Oct 16, 2006 16:58:18 GMT 1
seriously though......
how fast are you talking of running prior to withdrawl? - sub maximal or maximal?
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Post by kamikaze on Oct 16, 2006 17:02:19 GMT 1
Thanks Patience, but I am assuming you don't slow down, but even if you did, although your body might be slowing down up to arm strike, the javelin should still accelerate.
Unless you had a very slow arm.
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Post by lifebeginsat40 on Oct 16, 2006 17:03:23 GMT 1
Not sure Isaac Newton would agree with you. V = U + AT U being the speed of the javelin prior to the arm strike. The higher that speed (other factors remaining constant) the greater the release velocity, V. Maybe I'm not the one who missed the point? Well, let's examine this. In javelin throwing, the critical moment is around the time of release. Therefore, you may have hurtled down the run up at 15m/s, but if you have failed to convert that speed (a very common problem) then your speed, U will be less and your acceleration, a, will be in the negative. Therefore your release velocity will be very low. Newton's formula may be correct, but the interpretation to where it is applicable in the javelin throw is crucial. .....which is EXACTLY what Peter Yates was talking about at the weekend! Pointless running 100 miles an hour if it aint "right" for the release!
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Post by kamikaze on Oct 16, 2006 17:03:50 GMT 1
Slinger - sub maximal.
i.e most people can run faster without a Javelin than they can with one.
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Post by Patience on Oct 16, 2006 17:08:38 GMT 1
See - my degree didn't go to waste, after all! With the release speed, you get greater effect if you can accelerate as opposed to maintaing a constant speed. For many people, they need to slow the first part of the run up down slightly in order to gain the acceleration. If an athlete can move from 5ms to 6m/s in the final phase of their run up they will have the potential to achieve a faster release velocity than if they travelled town the run way at a constant 6m/s
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