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Post by sam on Apr 10, 2004 20:40:12 GMT 1
i helped out at the chelmsford open by collecting the javelins.
When i was on the U13's the official kept on allowing flat throws saying that they were only young and that he would give them the benefit of the doubt.... I said that you should teach them young so that they can go away and learn how to throw properly and make it land correctly. I also pointed out that us seniors never get the benefit of the doubt we either get a valid throw or a no-throw... AAARRGGHH
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Gamey
Nieland
Coach / Thrower
Posts: 43
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Post by Gamey on Apr 10, 2004 21:04:53 GMT 1
I coach U13's & would like to think that we can give them a bit of leaniency - after all we are trying to encourage them into the sport. I can see where your coming from but think that the lesson is a bit harsh for kids of their age. Be interesting to hear others views.
As for seniors................ back to the favourite red flag man......... a no throw is a no throw...... isn't it???
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Post by Mack on Apr 10, 2004 21:33:12 GMT 1
Depends if they are blind.
I think we should give them a break... but only in training. A competition is a competition... and some times kids will not learn until they get all no throws.
They have to learn some how. May be we should blame the coach.... if they were coached correctly they should get the ''valid'' throw.
But that could be something else we could bring up. ;D
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Post by Lovett on Apr 10, 2004 22:11:20 GMT 1
Fair enough they should be given a bit of leaniency if the jav's are landing flat but anything else is pushing it.
Rules are rules and if there not learnt at a young age there never gonna learn.
I'm not even 100% sure of the rule myself:
Is landing flat ok....i always thought it was and anything tail first is a foul but i've heard officials say if it doesn't make a mark then its a foul but some also give flat throws and some dont.
Theres that dodgy 700g Nemeth that the U17 have been throwing far with over the past few years and it always comes down flat, and some officials give it and some dont.
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Post by sarah on Apr 10, 2004 22:30:25 GMT 1
well after getting my dads uk:athletics rule book out it says if the javelin lands anywhere between the grip and the point of the javelin then it is counted as a throw. Now if the javelin lands flat then once again it comes down to the red flag man saying if its a throw or not, and as my dad has just said the red flag judge would have to be laying on the floor to call if its a throw or not. so really its down to the judge to call and if the judge is in a good or bad mood. But if you really want to get in to this rule then the IAAF rule says that "A throw shall be vaild only if the tip of the metal head strikes the ground before any other part of the javelin"
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Post by beepee on Apr 10, 2004 22:37:53 GMT 1
Nope landing flat is a foul throw. The rules say that the javelin must land "point" first but does not have to make a mark. If the jav lands flat on the grip then it is impossible for the point to hit first, but saying that most officials will give reasonable doubt as it is a fine line and a more than a keen eye that can discern the difference. On the subject of leniency the nippers should be taught to throw correctly and if it is a foul then that is what it is and they should be taught by the coach how to throw point down. This is not really hard to do.
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Post by Lovett on Apr 10, 2004 22:39:38 GMT 1
Thanks Stat-O, pretty much as i thought which is why some red flaggys give flat throws and some dont. I guess i need to get one of these books, i might then understand the rules of my own event. ;D
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Post by beepee on Apr 10, 2004 22:47:04 GMT 1
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Post by sarah on Apr 10, 2004 22:52:14 GMT 1
Its a good idea to get a uk:athletics rule book 1.so u can get to know the rules, 2.my coach makes me take a rule book to all my comps. So that if i know that a judge has broken a rule. I can pull my rule book out and show then what the rule really says and then its really good to see the look on the judges face.
The uk:athletics rule book costs £5.50
i dont know how you can get the book you could try emailing them on information@ukathletics.org.uk or by calling them on 01214565098
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Post by Lovett on Apr 10, 2004 22:58:20 GMT 1
Cheers People, i'm still confused.... but i guess i'm ok as my jav's stick in anyway.
;D
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Post by fieldofficial on Apr 10, 2004 23:19:50 GMT 1
sarah has most of the rule right.
if the javelin lands flat then it should be a no throw. but most of the time it will be down to the official to call if its a throw or not. Its down to what judge you have on the day.Most of the time the judge will give you the benefit of the doubt.
But we really dont get this from the senior men or women. If we do have then landing flat its the younger age groups doing it.
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Post by JB on Apr 12, 2004 11:32:31 GMT 1
great info sarah... and i reckon im gonna get one of those books. there's a couple of things confusing me here though and i need to vent a little ..... a rule is rule ! its that simple judges should be clear on this and stick to the literal translation. dont give benefits of doubt to kids they need to learn and learn properly. & sarah, can you have a look again at the rulebook when you get chance.... unless im mistaken what you said earlier would mean a legal throw would have to make some kind of mark as the point would hit first. so why are judges even considering measuring throws with no marks and making guesses on the landing point ? this seems absolutely rediculous to me .... no mark no throw it should be this simple, surely. failure to implement this strategy can lead to serious problems and things turning on the personal opinion of a judge who's in a bad mood cos he burnt his toast this morning ! a point to illustrate this is ant lovetts 'shuttle re-entry' mega bung this weekend.. look at the uk all time 100 list that ant's just entered into at 72nd place. this is a very important and historic record of our sport and these atheletes are separted by cm's. i think im right in saying that ant is actually level with someone on the same distance exactly. now imagine the impact of constant benefit of the doubt on this table (assuming it already isnt buggered) say if ants throw had landed flat and left no mark, the official, feeling happy cos his toast was pucker this morning gives the benefit of the doubt, stares at the ground were he's convinced ants scud missile landed at high speed, whilst also thinking about not getting impalled or falling over, and guesses the area he thinks is correct. now being very very very generous you would have to say that without a mark he would get this spot absolutely correct maybe 7 times out of 10 to within a cm (i said very very generous ) so he could be out by say 10cm each way the other three times... thats a potential swing of 20cm. in the uk list this could have moved ant forward 3 or back 3 places past other athletes hard fought pb's.... and in other parts of the list a 20cm swing can cover upto 8 or more people (and remember i was being very very generous!) should we still give the benefit of the doubt ? NO not to kids not to anyone. field officials out there read the rules point first no benefit of the doubt, make call's that can be properley officiated and keep consistant, your job is very hard and your in a no win situation but stick to your guns and make us land em point first and make a mark even if its tiny. if the top guys can get them in at 90m+ we should be able to at lesser distances. mmmmmmmmmm i feel better after that rant !
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Gamey
Nieland
Coach / Thrower
Posts: 43
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Post by Gamey on Apr 12, 2004 12:17:50 GMT 1
Nice rant JB I think if u look through I am the only one here who wants to be lenient to the under 13's & I am not convinced otherwise ....yet! My son of 11 does throw & I want to encourage him to do so. Sure I teach him to land the javelin point down but during competition this does not always happen. The throws that land flat are always a point of debate anyway so why discourage them especially if they have three fouls. As for older throwers, well the debate goes on....... I am sure that the javelin does not have to make a mark & the official who is marking has to use his best judgement. I've done this & it is very difficult especially when the ground is hard. Officials do have a hard task but in league matches just how many clubs supply competant people? We all compete & are debating the rules - what about the volunteer (mug) who ends up helping out. As an aside I watched a schools competition last year where two teachers ran the javelin. One red flagged & marked, the other called competitors, watched the line, recorded the throw & collected the javelins. When I offered help they turned it down!! The competition was a farce.
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Post by Lovett on Apr 12, 2004 12:26:24 GMT 1
Theres a dodgy Nemth flying about which quite a few of the U17 are getting hold of....this jav just stays in the air and always comes down flat.
A few years back a guy from my club got hold of one....and in a comp he threw it about 55-57m and it bounced and stuck in at 61m...the officials measured from the 61m so they obviously were not paying no attention there.
In 2002 at the English schools, the U17's throwing this Nemth was all landing flat and the officials would give one throw then fail another.....it was crazy.
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Post by sarah on Apr 12, 2004 19:33:27 GMT 1
I've had another look at the rule and it does not say in the rule book that the javelin has to make a mark for it to be a throw. Talking to my dad he said when he went on the course he got told that the javelin does not have to make a mark for it to be a throw as long as it lands point first it will be given as a throw. A good point that my dad did say is that 95% of the time a javelin will leave a mark in the ground. The other 5% does come down to the judge keeping a good eye on the ground and when it lands keeping his/her eye on the point where the javelin landed and moving to that point ASAP and get the marker in the ground. Now judges have to do this 95% of the time in the discus event because most of the time the discus will not leave any mark on landing. Its also right that in the pass helpers, help out on the field events (and yes once again most of them dont know the rules) well all that is about to change from this year. A rule has come in that on all field events now you have to have 1 qualified judge that knows all the rules taking part, and from 2006 (i think) every field judge will have to be qualified.
i hope this has help alittle.
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